(Announcer) Presentation of Dialogue on Idaho Public Television is made possible through the generous support of the Laura Moore Cunningham Foundation, committed to fulfilling the Moore and Bettis family legacy of building the great State of Idaho, by the Friends of Idaho Public Television, and by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

With additional funding from the James and Barbara Cimino Foundation.

Kalani Pickhart, Author: We had to rush it essentially because of the, the war.

Um, we moved it up through their printer because it was just -- there was suddenly a demand for the book.

Marcia Franklin, Host: What happens when the fictional story you've written intersects with current events?

That's what occurred to my guest today, whose very first novel, "I Will Die in a Foreign Land," is about Ukraine.

I talk with author Kalani Pickhart, next.

It's all part of a 15th anniversary edition of "Conversations from the Sun Valley Writers' Conference" on Dialogue.

Stay tuned.

(Music) Franklin: Hello and welcome to Dialogue.

I'm Marcia Franklin.

When Kalani Pickhart was getting her master's degree in creative writing, her original thesis project was a novel about a baseball player.

But then she watched a documentary called "Winter on Fire."

The Academy Award-nominated film chronicles the Maidan uprising in Ukraine during 2013 and 2014.

Its stories and themes so touched Pickhart that she decided to change the focus of her book and create characters who meet each other during the uprising.

After years of research and writing, including visiting Ukraine, her book, "I Will Die in a Foreign Land," was published in late 2021.

Just a few months later, Russia invaded Ukraine.

All of the sudden, there was increased demand for the book, as people tried to learn more about Ukrainian history.

It's been a wild ride for Pickhart, who's a first-time author.

I talked with her about the experience at the 2022 Sun Valley Writers' Conference.

Franklin: Well, welcome.

Welcome to you.

It's so nice to meet you.

And I understand you have an Idaho connection.

Pickhart: (Laughs) Yes.

Yeah, I was, I was born here, um, I was born in Mountain Home Air Force Base.

Yeah.

Franklin: Great.

Well, it's a coming home, then.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: Back to Idaho.

Pickhart: Totally is.

Yeah.

Franklin: You'll have to stay a And right now you're in Arizona, right?

Pickhart: Yeah, I'm in Arizona.

Franklin: OK. Pickhart: I'm in Phoenix.

Franklin: Tell me what the last, I don't know, nine months or so has been like?

You published your book, I wrote down October 19th, 2021.

Is that correct?

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: And then, uh, it's set in Ukraine.

Pickhart: Mm-hmm.

Franklin: And Russia invaded Ukraine on February 24th, 2022.

Pickhart: Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Franklin: So not that long… Pickhart: Right.

Franklin: …after your book that you've spent time on, invested in the characters.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: Um, what has this been like for you?

Uh, the last bit here?

Pickhart: Um, so I mean, when the book was released, I mean, it was obviously very exciting; you know, this has been a, a wild, um, experience for me.

Um, this is, you know, my first book, um, I was an un-agented writer, um, and the publisher, you know, picked me up and it was sort of a, a ride from there.

Um, but yeah, I mean, having released the book in October and then, um, not long after that, um, having, like seeing the news, and that, um, Putin did a full force attack on Ukraine was very, um, jarring for us.

I just feel really close to the material.

And even though I'm not Ukrainian, it's been, um, it's been years of work on this book and, um, talking to Ukrainians and researching their culture.

I've been surprised and grateful, though that, um, people who aren't familiar with Ukraine, um, have been reaching for my book to try and understand what's happening.

Um, I think that that's really moving to me.

I mean, a lot of feedback that I've gotten is that folks were really wanting to learn about the war.

Um, but not, you know, looking at a textbook was maybe just too daunting or a piece of nonfiction.

And so, um, I feel very honored that my novel's been able to, um, not only resonate with Ukrainian readers, um, but also, you know, resonate with folks who haven't had any experience with this culture.

I mean you can see the photos and the horrible, um, stories that are happening now in the news.

Um, but this, um, access into fiction allows people I think, to connect to through a character's eyes.

Um, and so that's been, that's the positive I think from this experience is people are caring more.

Franklin: And you are donating some proceeds… Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: …to the Ukrainian Red Cross.

Pickhart: Yeah, yeah.

So, um, part of my author proceeds, um, are going to the Ukrainian Red Cross.

Franklin: Well, the other thing that makes, um, the connection even stronger is because you, your, your novel is about people who are involved in the Maidan Uprising, 2013, 2014.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: Um, the characters themselves almost, you know, when you read it, you think, well, might they be involved... Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: ...now.

Pickhart: Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think, I think about that often.

Um, I don't think that there's a doubt in my mind that the characters would return, you know, so, um.

Franklin: Well, um, you know, folks can read more about the Maidan uprising, but in, in a nutshell, because this is a setting for your… Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: …for your book, in a nutshell, it happened, again, at the end of, it was about three months long, right?

The end of 2013 into 2014.

Pickhart: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Franklin: Because it looked as if Ukraine was going to move towards being part of the European Union and the, the then president, who was backed by Putin, um, pulled out of that.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: And people were so upset.

Pickhart: Yes.

Franklin: That they started, uh, massing.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: In Kiev and across the country.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: And that became an encampment.

And, um, there is a documentary about this: "Winter on Fire," that was nominated for an Academy Award.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin And that really was your way into the story, wasn't it?

As a, as a grad student… Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: …as an MFA student looking for something to, to write about.

Pickhart: Yeah, yeah.

Franklin: I mean, at first as I understand it, it was, you were going to write about baseball.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Yes.

I was, yeah.

Franklin: And then you saw this documentary and it really reached you.

Talk about that.

Pickhart: Yeah.

When I watched the documentary, though, it wasn't the political feedback that I was looking, you know, that I was drawn to.

It was the actual people that were out in the street.

And, um, people who had at once served in the military are now training people how to protect themselves from the, the military police force that was in Kiev.

And, um, I just found it really moving that, um, you know, as a citizen, sometimes you feel so powerless, I think in, um, when you see politics happening in Washington and, you know, and all you can do is vote.

And watching that documentary, um, really changed the game in my mind.

And to see the tenacity of the Ukrainian people to show up, day in and day out.

And despite the violence, you know, they really weren't, um, they weren't -- they were afraid, but they were brave, you know, and that really, really resonated with me.

I'd never seen anything like that before.

And so, um, while I was in my MFA program, you know, you have three dedicated years to just writing.

And I thought to myself, you know, "This is going to be a very ambitious book."

Um, and the deeper I got into it and understood how the history of Ukraine and Russia played into each other up to that moment, um, it became a much more complex book.

And I thought, you know, "I have these three years, I'm just gonna go for it.

And it's either going to be a terrible disaster or it's going to end up being something beautiful."

And so, um, yeah, that's how it ended up coming to be.

Franklin: And I've watched the documentary as well.

And there's a particular scene in it I think that, that… Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: …really touched your heart.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: And it is really interesting.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: Where the bells of St. Michael's Church, um, it it's, the urgency was so great… Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: …to let people know that something was happening in Independence Square, that that help was needed, and more people were needed.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: That the monks - it's the monks, right, rang that those bells?

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: All bells rang on that church for the first time in something like 8-900 years.

Pickhart: Yeah.

It was, the last time that they rang the bells all at the same time it was, uh, 1240, when the Mongols invaded.

And so that was really captivating to me too, because, um, now they're ringing the bells against their own government, um, which was just, you know, to perceive your own government as an invader of sorts, you know, or, um, attacking the people, was very moving to me.

And, um, I think I also just have like a affinity for churches and just like the refuge that they provide.

And, um, that church later on began, you know, became like a, a makeshift hospital.

Um, so it was, it was very clear that that was going to be like the center of the book.

Franklin: Now you, uh, did eventually get to visit Ukraine, um, in 2018… Pickhart: Yes.

Franklin: …if I'm correct.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: But you had these years where you were writing this… Pickhart: Mm-hmm.

Franklin: …not ever having been there.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: How do you construct a, a novel -- and we'll talk about the characters in a moment -- without ever having been to the place that it's set.

Google?

Pickhart: Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

I think that we're, I mean, because you know, Maidan happened so recently to when I was writing the book, um, it wasn't that far in the past, and there was just an abundance of, uh, news articles and media, um, you know, lots of interviews, footage of the actual events.

Um, a number of documentaries came out.

So, um, I was just taking everything in through osmosis, um, and really focusing a lot of my work on Euromaidan.

Franklin: We should say, that's another way of saying "Maidan" –" Euromaidan," because it was about joining the European Union.

Pickhart: European Union.

Franklin: So it's the same thing.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Same thing.

Yeah.

And, um, so yeah, I, I spent a lot of my time focusing up until 2018 on Euromaidan, um, and the scenes and everything that happens with the characters there.

And once I went to Ukraine, it was like a whole different reality, you know, because you're actually in the city, you're around the people, you're hearing the language, you know, it, it made the book even more real for me.

So, and then after that, I went to Prague, which was another aspect of the book that, um, also became very real, so.

Franklin: Well, um, let's talk about the novel itself.

You have four, four-plus characters, five.

Um, and they all, the hinge point is this Euromaidan... Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: …protest.

They're very different.

Um, one is born in Ukraine, but was adopted, lived in America, has come back after a tragedy.

Um, one is a former mine worker, grew up in Chernobyl.

His wife has died, um, probably from exposure to Chernobyl.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: Um, Aleksandr, another character, is a Russian who had served in the KGB and now has, uh, had regrets.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: And, um, Slava, who's a Ukrainian woman who had a extremely difficult, uh, life, and Dascha, a reporter who is also, um, had a difficult life, is trying to cover both sides of the story.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: So these characters all, um, eventually intertwine and meet and, you know, there's, it all comes to conclusion.

Um, was it hard to, you know, first of all, you had to decide what characters you wanted and the reasons for them... Pickhart: Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Franklin: ...and then have that braiding happen?

Pickhart: Yeah.

(Laughs.)

Yeah.

The first thing that I, the first voice that I heard was Aleksandr's, oddly enough, um, who's not Ukrainian.

And in some ways that doesn't surprise me, because I'm not Ukrainian.

So he's an outsider.

And even though Katya is, um, Ukrainian heritage, you know, she didn't grow up there.

Um, so those were the two characters that I heard first.

And those were the two characters that I worked through first.

And then once I started to, um, you know, think about their storyline, their trajectory, um, one thing that I knew I wanted in the book, or that I felt that the book was about was a love story.

And that's where Misha came in, um, into Katya's life.

Franklin: That's the former mine worker.

Pickhart: Former mine worker.

And, um, and Slava, um, I had seen a documentary on the Fe, uh, the group FEMEN.

Um, and they were a very, um, uh, avant-garde, um, protest group.

Um, and I thought that having a very strong Ukrainian young woman in there would be, um, you know, would really resonate with, uh, readers.

And, um, so anyways, the initial drafts of this book, it wasn't really interwoven.

Um, it was, I wrote each narrative out one-by-one.

Dascha came into the picture much later once I was figuring out… Franklin: Who's the reporter.

Pickhart: Yeah, Dascha's the reporter.

Um, and so that's kind of how it materialized.

And then, um, I do enjoy myself reading novels that switch perspective and see, um, different sides of an experience.

And so, um, I thought, especially with all the research that I've been doing about Ukraine, um, that it's a very complex region of the world.

And I really wanted to -- my goal and my understanding is that a lot of American readers weren't going to know the complexities of Ukraine and why this protest movement was important.

And so a lot of it was educational in the sense that through each of these perspectives, you could learn something new about Ukraine.

Franklin: And what I thought was really interesting was the Dascha character, the reporter, she is trying to, she doesn't see it as just black and white, but she sees the shades of gray.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: And that is the case.

I mean, there are Ukrainians that, who, uh, affiliate more with Russia.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: Particularly over in that Eastern part that Russia is saying it's, is theirs, because it was at one point part of the Russian Empire, people speak Russian.

And, um, you have that in your book, she's trying to parse that.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: And then you, you have a character, minor character though, who's has gone to fight for the Republic, the breakaway… Pickhart: Mm-hmm.

Franklin: …area.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: So, um, was that important to you to get that, for want of a better word, "gray" in there?

Pickhart: Yeah.

Yeah.

And I mean, I definitely came into this from the perspective of the, um, documentary, the "Winter on Fire," where it was very much like Ukraine's fight for independence, you know?

And, um, but the more that I learned that, you know, there were other generations of Ukrainians who came, who lived during the USSR and, you know, were, would say like, "This is actually better for us," you know, um, it became important to me because I feel like, you know, at the same time our political landscape was changing in the United States.

And Dascha's a very integral character into how important reliable news sources are, unbiased reporting, and being able to see both sides so that people can understand and have more compassion towards one another.

Um, so she was a very integral piece of the book.

And for me personally, I mean, um, writing about the, um, murky history of Ukraine with, um, you know, there's a, a very interesting and terrible past with Ukraine and the Polish and the Jewish people.

And so it was showing all of that, like all of the messiness involved.

Franklin: I would like to ask you about the Kobzari singers.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: Which is, is that it, uh, folk singers.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: And you've used them as, as a chorus really.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: As an almost omniscient narrator throughout.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: Um, why was that important to you to have, have that?

Pickhart: Yeah.

Ukrainians are very musical group of people.

Um, they're often singing.

And, um, at Euromaidan, they were singing in the streets.

And when they were carrying the bodies of the Heavenly Hundred to their resting place, they were singing Ukrainian laments, which is… Franklin: The hundred people, who civilians, who, who died during… Pickhart: Yes.

Yes.

Um, they were singing Ukrainian laments, which is where the title of the book comes from.

Um, and so that voice, that singing, you know, it came through, um, it would pop up multiple times in the book, you know, through the scenes at Euromaidan.

But, um, there was also this sort of omniscient voice that kind of came in every time, you know, every once in a while, while I was writing.

And, um, it was telling the story of Ukraine.

And I've, it came out much later in my revision, but it felt very, very important.

Um, and it ultimately ended up being one of, um, my favorite parts of writing the book, and for many readers, um, the feedback that I've gotten is that they've also really enjoyed that part, which was really nice to hear too.

Um, it was a risk to put in a little bit of like a poetry, you know, (laughs) poetry lean in there.

Um, but it's been, it's been very well received and I'm so glad.

Franklin: Um, it sounds as if you really, the characters really did move through you.

Some authors I've interviewed say that some don't.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: Um, but it sounds like in this case you were hearing, um… Pickhart: Mm-hmm.

Franklin: …these characters, and they were really alive inside of you.

Pickhart: Yeah.

It was a very, um, I think there's parts of the book that I read that I don't know how they got in there.

(Laughs.)

You know, it's just a, um, it's just that artistic flow that there's something that like speaks through you and it feels like otherworldly and, um, very powerful.

And I think that when that voice comes, it's incredibly important to listen.

Um, because sometimes it doesn't come very often.

(Laughs.)

Franklin: What would you say binds your characters together in addition to their interest in the, in the protests?

Pickhart: Um, I'd say love, actually.

My favorite books are always those that, um, uncover love and compassion and tenderness in times of crisis and fear.

And I think that that's the most beautiful part of human nature is you can see all these terrible things happening around you, but then there's these beautiful moments of tenderness and love.

And for each of the characters in the book, um, it's this genuine, like caring for one another, um, falling in love with one another, um, and under, trying to understand each other.

And so that was a motivating factor for me as a writer, to be excited to know about these characters intimately and for them to be honest, and with that honesty came love, too.

Franklin: And there's a little mystery in there for readers.

Pickhart: There is a little mystery, yeah.

Yeah.

That was probably the, the most fun I had writing the book was, um, writing the, the mystery and, uh, a lot of Aleksandr's experiences in the KGB.

Franklin: You mentioned earlier that you were an un-agented... Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: …writer.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: And, um, you know, you'd send out queries and things like that.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: Um, it, it's charming, actually, in reading about it, but Two Dollar Radio, uh, took a chance, I guess….

Pickhart: Yeah.

Franklin: …we could say, on you?

Pickhart: Yeah.

It was an incredible, I mean, I, I sent the book out to at least 50 agents, you know, doing hours of research, trying to find out who might be interested in this.

Um, I think I only got one full manuscript request, um, which was later turned down.

Um, but Two Dollar Radio, I mean, they published a lot of, uh, Eastern European writers and, um, Eric, uh -- one half of Two Dollar Radio -- is, his family's from Croatia.

Um, so I think that there's a natural draw there.

Um, and I was just thrilled.

I mean, I was thrilled that they wanted to take the time with it because it's such a hard book.

It's a difficult book to summarize on a book jacket it's, you know, um, and they did the work, uh, day in and day out for it.

And I was just very, I'm very impressed by them.

And now I do have an agent, so that's exciting too.

(Laughs.)

So, you know, I have this really great support system that came forward with this book and I'm, you know, it's just been an incredible, surreal experience.

And, yeah.

Franklin: Did I read at one point that you like, papered a wall with all the rejection…you like had all the rejections slips in front of you?

Pickhart: I did.

I totally did.

It was also motivating for me because, um, I was getting close to quitting in sending it out and just taking a break and thinking, "OK, I'm just gonna work on something else, and I'll try sending this out again or looking at it in another year."

Um, and that didn't happen.

So it was within a month of my decision.

It was around the holidays.

Um, Eric send me an email on Christmas Day asking, "Are the rights still available for this?"

And it was just amazing, you know, so.

Franklin: And now, have there, has there been a real surge of interest and, and they're having to print quite a few more books?

Pickhart: Oh, yes.

That's, um, I try to keep track of what they've been up to, but they, we, we sold out the hard co-, the hardcover, um, editions, and I believe there are 5,000 of those.

And then they have done a run of, I believe, 10,000 for the paperback copy.

Um, so there, we had to rush it essentially because of the, the war.

Um, we moved it up through their printer because it was just, peop- there was suddenly a demand for the book.

And so we moved it up six months to be able to print it, which was incredible.

Franklin: Do you have a good, good response from Ukrainians as well?

Pickhart: Yeah, that's been the most meaningful for me is to know that the book is very complex in Ukrainian history and to still have Ukrainians read it and say, "This book is beautiful and thank you so much for it."

Franklin: Do you envision that it could be put to screen?

Pickhart: Yeah.

Um, we've had some interest in that, actually.

Um, and I can see it in my mind as a movie, you know, or, um, more of like a series, because you'd have to take in all, so many different perspectives and things that happen in the book.

But I would love to see that.

Franklin: Yeah, because you could actually expand the characters, you know, more.

Pickhart: Yeah, yeah.

I would love to see, um, you know, something that's just so close to you, you know, there's a part of me that's just like, ooh, you know, like you don't wanna let it go.

But I actually think it could be really exciting to see somebody's interpretation of the book, you know, in a, in film.

I think that'd be really exciting.

Franklin: Kalani, will you go back to Ukraine?

Pickhart: I really hope so.

Yeah.

I really hope so.

Um, I do hope very, very soon that I can return to Ukraine and it'll be, it'll look a lot different than it was when I was there.

Um, but it'll still be beautiful and I'm very excited for the number of people who've learned about how incredible Ukraine is and the history there, and the folks that I'm seeing out on social media saying like, "I'm ready to visit this city, you know, when it's safe," and so hoping for an end to the war very soon.

Franklin: And what have you learned about yourself writing this?

It sounds like it's been quite a journey.

Pickhart: Oh, wow.

That I can do it.

(Laughs.)

I never thought I could write something like this.

Um, first of all, um, it was so scoping and intimidating and, you know, these are the books I'd like to read; you know, these are not the books I think about writing.

Um, and so, but I did it.

And everything else that came after afterward was because I spent so much time with the work and doing the research and feeling for these people, these characters in the book.

This was just the win that I needed.

And, um, I'm very grateful that it ended up printed and I'm even more grateful for the fact that I have readers and people that are excited to talk to me about this book.

So, it really means the world to me.

And I wanna keep going, and I'm really excited to think about what is next.

Right now I'm kind of through this osmosis phase where I think I'm gonna go in this direction, um, but then something else is really shiny over here.

And so I'm kind of in this phase of just absorbing as much material as possible and kind of seeing where the chips may fall.

Um, and a lot of that is hopefully follow, falling in the Bayou.

So (laughs), which is a completely different environment than Ukraine, so.

Franklin: Well, it's been a pleasure talking with you, and congratulations.

Pickhart: Thank you so much.

Franklin: I look forward to seeing what, what comes next.

Pickhart: Yeah.

Thank you so much.

This means so much.

Franklin: Of course.

Franklin: You've been listening to author Kalani Pickhart talking about her book, "I Will Die in a Foreign Land."

Our conversation was taped at the 2022 Sun Valley Writers' Conference.

My thanks to conference organizers for inviting us back for our 15th year, and to the Dialogue team.

If you'd like to watch any of the 70 programs we've taped at the event, head over to our website at idahoptv.org slash dialogue.

The shows are also on the Idaho Public Television YouTube channel.

And don't forget to like the Dialogue Facebook page.

For Dialogue, I'm Marcia Franklin.

Thanks for joining us.

(Music) (Announcer) Presentation of Dialogue on Idaho Public Television is made possible through the generous support of the Laura Moore Cunningham Foundation, committed to fulfilling the Moore and Bettis family legacy of building the great State of Idaho; by the Friends of Idaho Public Television, and by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

With additional funding from the James and Barbara Cimino Foundation.