Jeffrey Goldberg: I want to turn to ecclesiastical politics for a while.

And I want to be fair, I want to talk about something that J.D.

Vance said, which I thought was very interesting.

And I want fair here.

We live in the age of the enlightenment in which it is permissible and even encouraged to question religious authority and question religious doctrine.

And the world's Catholics obviously differ on many theological issues, but there is still something odd about the statement that J.D.

Vance made the other day.

Watch part of it.

J.D.

Vance, U.S.

Vice President: When the pope says that God is never on the side of those who will the sword, there is a thousand-year -- more than a thousand-year tradition of just war theory, okay?

Now, we can, of course, have disagreements about whether this or that conflict is just, but I think that it's important in the same way that it's important for the vice president of the United States to be careful when I talk about matters of public policy, I think it's very, very important for the pope to be careful when he talks about matters of theology.

Jeffrey Goldberg: So, he's right, obviously.

There's Augustinian just war theory, thousand years of tradition and obviously doctrinal difference, and that's all true and actually intellectually interesting.

I was a little confused by the tone at the end, by telling the pope to be careful about how he discusses theology.

There was a temerity to it that I thought was misplaced to talk about this a little.

Stephen Hayes: Yes, temerity to it that I think we're accustomed to from J.D.

Vance.

I think it's fair and generous of you to suggest that he was making that more profound point about just war theory.

I mean, one of the four main points of just war theory is that you have to be fighting on behalf of a righteous cause.

J.D.

Vance opposed the war to Donald Trump, and he's out in public arguing in favor of it.

So, I think he's on shaky ground there.

The other thing he said in the very next sentence was that he advised the pope that when he talks about theology, he said, you've got to make sure it's anchored in the truth.

You just have to -- from JD Vance, who's the vice president to Donald Trump, this is the guy who said that, you know, they were eating pets in Ohio.

And when he was asked about that, said, if I have to create stories to get the American media to follow these things, that's what I'm going to do, this is the guy who's lecturing the pope on truth?

Temerity is a pretty good word for it.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Michael, take us a little bit through this.

How did this fight begin between the pope and the president?

Michael Scherer: Well, so Pope Leo for weeks has been steadily increasing his rhetoric of concern about what's happening in Iran.

You know, March 31st, he says he hopes that Trump is looking for an off-ramp.

Weeks later, he says the threat to the American -- or days later, the threat to the American people is unacceptable.

Then he comes out and says, God does not bless any conflict, which prompts, you know, that response.

That was actually in a tweet, which I think then prompts the president, because he can read a tweet, to release last Sunday a very long sort of blistering Truth Social post that essentially says -- you know, talks about the pope as if he's just another politician.

He's weak on crime, he's terrible on foreign policy.

I like his brother better.

I mean, that was basically the tone of it.

And, interestingly, the pope, rather than step back from that, has stepped up and has talked in even more aggressive terms.

He's on a trip to Africa right now about how, you know, the military leaders should not use religion to justify their actions, you know, sort of veiled reference what Pete Hegseth has been doing over at the Pentagon.

Catholic voters are a real swing group in this country.

There're not a lot of swing groups left in this country.

But, you know, Joe Biden won Catholics by like one point.

It was a 50-50 race in 2020.

Trump won Catholics by 12 points over Kamala Harris.

The world has sort of cited against Trump on this.

You had Meloni, the prime minister of Italy, coming out and saying, I really don't like what he's saying.

She's an ally of President Trump.

And then you had separately this week, this whole other scandal of the president throwing up an A.I.-generated image of himself as Jesus, which upset all his Evangelical followers.

So, Trump is not really operating -- he hasn't backed down.

He says he won't apologize, but he's not really operating from a position of strength.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Just to hear the pope directly, this is, I think, a quote that captures what he's trying to say over the last couple of weeks.

Let's listen to the pope.

Pope Leo XIV: The things that I say are certainly not meant as attacks to anyone.

And the vestige of the gospel is very clear, blessed are the peacemakers.

I will not shy away from announcing the message of the gospel for the ways to enjoy for anytime it's possible.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Leigh Ann, let's talk about this politically, alas.

It's one thing to attack senators, congressmen, governors.

It's another thing to pick a political fight with the pope.

On the Hill, what are people, Catholic and non-Catholic, what are they saying about this in terms of the political price that could be paid for having a fight with somebody you really can't beat in a kind of way?

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Well, Republicans are mostly defending the president here.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Including Catholic Republicans?

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Yes.

Speaker Mike Johnson is not Catholic, but he is extremely religious.

He says that the pope should not get involved in political discussions and political fights.

And, you know, Democrats obviously think that this is ridiculous and that the president is not a fight that he should be fighting.

But, politically, Republicans see the entire coalition, the Republican coalition, falling apart and they're extremely nervous about it.

He's upsetting Catholics.

He is upsetting -- the president is upsetting young voters who are moving away from the president.

Independents, absolutely in polling, are very unsatisfied with this president.

Women are not happy with the president and in some recent polling, even some men are -- he's underwater on men, or close to it.

So, this is really bad news for Republicans heading into the midterm elections when they're trying desperately to get the president focused on the economy.

I mean, we said that, you know, earlier that he was in Nevada and Arizona talking about no taxes on tips while this war was happening.

That's actually what the Republicans want him to be talking about.

Two days was a huge success in the eyes of Republicans that they were able to get him to focus on it, but they want a lot more of it, and they still think, despite all of this, that he is their best messenger.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Jon, how does he get out of this fight with the pope?

Jonathan Lemire: His usual tactics don't work.

He only knows he only has one speed, and that's just to accelerate, to expand the fight.

He did get blowback from Republicans over the A.I.

image.

I think that is something that even -- Jeffrey Goldberg: The Jesus image.

Jonathan Lemire: The Jesus image, yes.

Even Speaker Johnson felt that was inappropriate and it is so rare when he dares cross President Trump.

I mean, you know, for Trump, it would mean backing down.

He's sort of refused to do that.

But I think it also -- it comes in a week where he's just taking loss after loss after loss after loss.

Now, perhaps the Iran situation will turn around, as we all say, it's too soon to say and impossible to predict, but this is also a week where his best buddy in Europe, Viktor Orban, lost and lost big after Trump had endorsed him, after the vice president went to Budapest, the secretary of state was there earlier this year, Trump, on the eve of the election, said the U.S.

will invest in Hungary if Orban wins another term.

And the Hungarian voters not only said no, they said no resoundingly.

So, Trump's usual plays, as I wrote this week for The Atlantic, is not working right now.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes.

I mean, here's the example of what we're talking about.

This is the image that he posted.

And then Trump had a kind of incredible denial which we should listen to.

Donald Trump, U.S.

President: It was me.

I did post it and I thought it was me as a doctor, and had to do with Red Cross, as a Red Cross worker there, which we support.

And only the fake news could come up with that one.

So -- Jeffrey Goldberg: A deeper question, what percentage of the country believes him when he says that he thought he was a doctor?

Michael Scherer: Oh, I don't think even his supporters believe that.

I mean, I don't think anybody's had a doctor with glowing ointment, you know, put on their heads.

But I think his supporters are willing to go along with it, which is a different point.

Jeffrey Goldberg: You've made Steve laugh.

Stephen Hayes: The robe, the white robe and the (INAUDIBLE).

Jonathan Lemire: I think about who our health secretary is.

So, maybe, yes.

Michael Scherer: No.

But, honestly, like his supporters, like when he says things like that at this point, there's sort of like a meta narrative going on.

Everyone knows he's making that up.

And I think, you know, the question is whether you're happy he's sticking it again to the liberal media and calling them liars and are willing to go along with this trade, or whether you're actually, you know, upset about the truth.

That's what's he worried about.

Stephen Hayes: It wasn't anchored in truth, as J.D.

Vance might say.

Jeffrey Goldberg: I want to read you something that our Washington Week colleague Peter Baker wrote this week.

A series of disjointed, hard to follow and sometimes profane statements kept by his, a whole civilization will die tonight threat to wipe Iran off the map last week, and his head-spinning attack on the weak on crime and terrible for foreign policy pope on Sunday night, have left many with the impression of a deranged autocrat mad with power.

Now, we have all spent years in the media kind of dancing around subjects of mental stability, intellectual capability and so on.

I feel like this conversation is becoming a little bit more -- and Peter is not the most incautious journalist.

The New York Times is not the most incautious journalism institution in America.

Are we entering a new phase?

Was all this Jesus talk and fighting with the pope this week a sign that maybe we're entering a new phase in a discussion about Trump's capabilities?

Jonathan Lemire: I think it's possible.

And when we got there with his predecessor, President Biden, whether his age, whether he was still up for the job, it became one of the defining storylines, of course, in 2024 with that debate, people have been dancing around it for a while now.

And, of course, the White House denies it.

They say he is up for the job.

They say, President Trump's always been like this, and in some ways he's always been like this.

But I do think it's -- what we've seen the last ten days, particularly the threat to wipe out a civilization, I think is raising questions for more and more Americans about his stability.

Michael Scherer: I think we're -- Leigh Ann Caldwell: I think that -- Michael Scherer: Go ahead.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: I was just going to say, I think that more than, you know, his mental capability right now, it's more the kind of drunk on power situation.

If Iran would have been successful, it's highly likely, I'm told by people close to him, that he already would've been in Cuba.

So, the successes that he feels like he has had over and over again is perpetuating this image of -- this God-like image, really, and I think that that is probably perhaps more than his mental capacity where the discussion is.

Jeffrey Goldberg: You raised it.

Do you think there's still a chance he will go into Cuba?

Leigh Ann Caldwell: I do.

I don't think that there's not a chance.

What's to say when he gets bored or when he moves on from Iran.

He has Marco Rubio, who -- this is something that he wants as well.

He has allies in the administration who want it.

So, we'll see.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes.

Michael Scherer: I think we're returning to the sort of erratic behavior of the first term.

The defining fact of this last year was there was this sort of missionary zeal across government and an amazing ability to get stuff done.

He was able to sort of remake a lot of the federal government.

He got big legislation through.

He had all these foreign conflicts.

We're now entering a stage where his ability to do any of that is severely diminished.

Like Congress is going to be basically locked, he's going to lose power.

He's going to have to fight for these midterm elections.

The polling is not good.

It's probably not going to get much better.

And his foreign ability to project power is basically been shown to have limits in a way it hadn't up to this point.

And so when that happens, he begins to act out.

And I think that's what we're entering again.

Jeffrey Goldberg: I'm still betting - - maybe you guys disagree with me, but I'm still betting that he comes back to the Greenland subject as well, because it always -- everything spins back around, yes.

But, Steve, let me we'll end with you on this.

I guess there's two questions.

One, is he diminishing in capabilities or in self-restrained?

And the second question is, are we in the media, in the political class, generally, if not on the MAGA side, going to be more -- do you anticipate people being more frank about what we're seeing?

This Jesus moment and the fight with the pope really struck me as well.

This is a new level.

Stephen Hayes: I don't think it's a different Donald Trump.

I think this is who Donald Trump has always been.

We've seen moments of intensity, like we're seeing right now, and we've seen moments when it wanes.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Well, we'll be talking about this again.

I don't know how much we're going to be talking about papal politics in the future, but we very well might be.

We very well might be.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: They should debate.

Donald Trump and Pope Leo should debate.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Well, thank you for watching Vatican Week.

We're going to have to leave it there.