>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> YOU SEE PLACES WHERE WE CAN FINDPRISES, OTHERS WHERE WE CAN HAVE MORE DISCUSSIONS.

>> THE FIRST UKRAINE PEACE TALKS IN NINE MONTHS HAVE ENDED WITH U. S. ENVOYS HEADED TO MOSCOW TO MEET WITH PUTIN AND THEN LATER WITH ZENSKY.

SO WHAT DOES PUTIN WANT NOW?

I ASK FINLAND'S PRESIDENT, ALEXANDER STUBB, WHO HAS JUST SPOKEN WITH HIM.

THEN?

-- >> THERE'S A SENSE OF FEELING THAT KNOWLEDGE ONCE ACQUIRED IS NEVER LOST.

BUT IT DOES GET LOST, BUT IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.

>> SLEEPING BEAUTIES, RENAISSANCE MAN AND TALKING HEADS FOUNDER DAVID BYRNE JOINS TO TALK ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK.

PLUS -- >> DATA CENTERS BECAME MORE THAN ANYTHING A SYMBOL.

THEY BECAME A SYMBOL OF TOO MUCH CONCENTRATED POWER.

>> THE REBELLION AGAINST DATA CENTERS.

"THE ATLANTIC" STAFF WRITER GEORGE PACKER TELLS WALTER ISAACSON WHY A. I. TECH GIANTS ENRAGED U. S. VOTERS.

> >> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

NORMA C. WARNER AND PAUL D. WARNER.

MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW.

THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

AS THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION STILL REELS FROM LAST WEEK'S MID-TERM DEFEAT, DIPLOMACY IS BACK ON THE TABLE OVER UKRAINE.

TWO DAYS OF TALKS IN THE UAE HAVE ENDED AFTER AMERICAN, RUSSIAN, AND UKRAINIAN NEGOTIATORS MET FOR THE FIRST TIME IN NINE MONTHS.

THE LEAD FOR THE U. S. IS PRESIDENT TRUMP'S SON-IN-LAW, JARED KUSHNER, WHO SAYS HE AND STEVE WHITKOFF SEE SOME POSSIBILITIES AHEAD.

>> SOME AREAS WE SEE PLACES WHERE WE CAN FIND COMPROMISES.

OTHERS WE NEED TO HAVE MORE DISCUSSIONS.

BUT I THINK THIS WAS A GOOD FIRST STEP.

ONE OF THE POSITIVES IS WE AGREED THAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THE BIGGEST HUMANITARIAN RELEASE OF PRISONERS, WHICH WE'RE GOING TO FINALIZE THE NUMBERS TOMORROW.

STEVE AND I ARE GOING TO TRAVEL TO MOSCOW TOMORROW TO MEET WITH PRESIDENT PUTIN TO GO OVER WHAT WAS DISCUSSED TODAY AND TRY TO MAKE MORE PROGRESS ON SOME OF THE ISSUES THAT WE DISCUSSED BECAUSE WE SEE SOME OPENINGS AND SOME OPPORTUNITIES THERE.

>> BUT THE CENTRAL QUESTION REMAINS --WHAT SECURITY GUARANTEES CAN PROTECT UKRAINE FROM FUTURE RUSSIAN AGGRESSION?

PUTIN IS STILL DEMANDING TERRITORY THAT HE'S FAILED TO CONQUER SO FAR, WHILE EUROPEAN LEADERS FEAR ANY DEAL COULD RESHAPE THE CONTINENT'S SECURITY ARCHITECTURE.

AND THE CONSEQUENCES OF WAR EXTEND FAR BEYOND THE BATTLEFIELD.

THE CONFLICT WITH UKRAINE AND IRAN HAS DRIVEN UP ENERGY PRICE AND RENEWED ALLIANCE ON FOSSIL FUELS JUST AS WORLD LEADERS GATHER FOR THE C. O. P. CLIMATE SUMMIT IN TURKIYE.

THAT IS WHERE WE FIND ALEXANDER STUBB.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

AS I WAS SAYING, PRESIDENT STUBB, YOU RECENTLY LED A EUROPEAN INITIATIVE ALONG WITH THE NORWEGIAN PRIME MINISTER TO CALL PUTIN.

GOING TO TALK ABOUT THAT IN A SEC, BUT FIRST WHAT DO YOU MAKE IF AT ALL ANYTHING THAT'S COME OUT OF THE ABU DHABI TALKS TODAY?

>> WELL, I HAD A CHANCE TO DISCUSS BOTH WITH THE AMERICAN MOSHERS NAMELY JARED KUSHNER, AND THEN WITH THE UKRAINIAN NEGOTIATORS, AND I THINK WE CAN SEE SOME CAREFUL STEPS FORWARD.

REWIND A COUPLE OF WEEKS BACK WHEN WE MET ALL SIDES EXCEPT THE RUSSIANS IN OSLO I THINK THE NEGOTIATIONS WERE ON THE BRINK.

WE WERE ABLE TO GET A PROCESS GOING, AND THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME THE RUSSIANS, THE UKRAINIANS, THE AMERICANS MET TOGETHER SINCE LAST FEBRUARY.

SO I THINK THERE ARE SUBTLE MOVES AHEAD.

ONE OF THEM WAS THE MOVE THAT JARED KUSHNER JUST MENTIONED THERE, AN EXCHANGE OF PRISONERS OF WAR.

I THINK THE BIG NEGOTIATION IS GOING TO BE TOMORROW WITH KUSHNER AND PUTIN IN MOSCOW.

AND WE'LL SEE HOW WE ADVANCE AFTER THAT.

>> OKAY, YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD AS ALWAYS.

NOW, KUSHNER USED I THINK SOME TROUBLING LANGUAGE AGAIN AFTER WHITKOFF CALLS, YOU KNOW, PUTIN A HUMANITARIAN.

KUSHNER THEN SAYS TODAY THAT WE'RE GOING TO MOSCOW AND USED THE WORD TO GET PUTIN'S BLESSING, TO GET PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF, I. E. , EUROPEAN LEADERS ALSO INVOLVED IN THESE NEGOTIATIONS.

UP UNTIL NOW PUTIN HAS SAID NO WAY, AND THAT SEEMS TO BE THE CASE.

DO YOU THINK FROM WHAT YOU HEARD TODAY THAT --THAT PUTIN WILL AGREE TO HAVE EUROPEANS AT THE TABLE AS WELL?

>> WELL, I THINK THE FIRST OBSERVATION TO MAKE IS THAT I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD SHOOT THE MESSENGER.

I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE WORKING ON THESE NEGOTIATIONS ON ALL SIDES.

YOU KNOW, SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WE HEAR WE DON'T LIKE ABOUT, OTHERS WE LIKE.

BUT THERE NEED TO BE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THE DIALOGUE.

THAT'S WHY FOR INSTANCE THE NORWEGIAN PRIME MINISTER AND I CALLED PUTIN A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO.

THEN TO GIVE YOU A DIRECT ANSWER, I THINK THERE'S A POSSIBILITY THAT THE EUROPEANS WILL BE AROUND THE TABLE, AND I THINK THAT WOULD BE PROGRESS IN AND OF ITSELF.

AND IF YOU ADD ONTO THAT THAT THERE MIGHT BE A NEW MEETING IN THIS CASE BETWEEN THE AMERICANS, THE UKRAINIANS, THE RUSSIANS, AND THE EUROPEANS IN ONE TO TWO WEEKS ON A TECHNICAL LEVEL, THAT WOULD BE PROGRESS AS WELL.

BUT WE'RE JUST GOING TO HAVE WAIT BY TOMORROW.

YOU KNOW, PUTIN IS THE ONE THAT DECIDES ON THIS, AND ON THE UKRAINIAN SIDE IT'S GOING TO BE ZELENSKYY WHO DECIDES, AND AMERICANS ARE GOING TO BE SPEAKING WITH BOTH SIDES IN THE NEXT 24 HOURS.

>> OKAY, SO SINCE YOU HAVE -- AS AND YOU MENTIONED YOUR NORWEGIAN COUNTERPART --YOU HAVE BOTH SPOKEN TO PUTIN.

YOU LED THAT INITIATIVE.

AND OF COURSE YOU WANT TO KNOW FROM THE HORSE'S MOUTH.

BUT THE REPORTING AFTERWARDS SUGGESTED THAT YOU DID NOT THINK HE WAS NECESSARILY READY FOR PEACE AT THIS MOMENT.

CAN YOU JUST TELL ME FROM YOUR OWN WORDS WHAT IMPRESSION YOU GOT FROM HIM?

>> WELL, THE IMPRESSION WAS THE CONVERSATION WAS PROFESSIONAL.

IT WAS STRAIGHTFORWARD, AND FRANK.

WE WERE ABLE TO RELAY MESSAGES FROM UKRAINE, NAMELY TWO THINGS.

ONE THAT ZELENSKYY WANTED TO MEET PUTIN LILATERALLY TO DISCUSS TERRITORY AND SECURITY.

AND TWO HE WANTED DEESCULAWYER MEASURES ON ENERGY, ON GRAIN, ON PRISONERS OF WAR AND INFRASTRUCTURE.

HOPEFULLY THE THIRD ONE NOW TAKES PLACE TOMORROW IN ONE FORM OR THE OTHER.

I THINK IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT THAT WE WERE ABLE TO GIVE THE UKRAINIAN POSITION FROM A FINNISH AND NORWEGIAN PERSPECTIVE.

I THINK THE FUNDAMENTAL QUESTION THAT WE, THE EUROPEANS HAVE TO ASK OURSELVES --IS IT IN OUR INTEREST TO BE OUTSIDE THE NEGOTIATIONS AND SORT OF PRESS THE MUTE BUTTON AND NOT HAVE A DIRECT CONVERSATION?

MY ANSWER TO THAT COMING FROM A COUNTRY WITH 1,340 KILOMETERS OF BORDER WITH RUSSIA IS, NO, WE NEED TO ENGAGE.

WE NEED TO DISCUSS.

WE NEED TO HAVE A PROCESS, AND THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT'S HAPPENING.

AND NOW ACTUALLY I WANT EUROPEANS TO GET INVOLVED AND ESPECIALLY OUR BIG PLAYERS, THE EU INSTITUTIONS, THE UK, GERMANY, FRANCE, POLAND, ET CETERA.

I THINK IT'S TIME TO START NEGOTIATING IN EARNESTCH.

>> THE THING HE DID SAY AS A PLAUSIBLY DIPLOMATIC VIEW, AND EUROPE IS AT STAKE AS YOU SAY.

YOU HAVE TO HAVE SKIN IN THE GAME.

BUT WHAT DID HE SAY?

DID HE SAY HE WANTS TERRITORY HE HASN'T CONQUERED YET?

DID HE SAY YES TO REASONABLE SECURITY GUARANTEES, WHICH UP UNTIL NOW HE SAID NO.

YOU SAY AND THAT'S GREAT THERE WILL BE PROGRESS ON ITEM THREE, WHICH IS THE EXCHANGE OF P. O. W. s ON BOTH SIDES, BUT TO BE FAIR THAT'S BEEN GOING ON THROUGHOUT THE WAR.

THIS ONE MAY BE BIG, BUT TO BE FAIR, THAT BENEFITS BOTH SIDES.

SO I JUST WANT TO KNOW FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE AT THIS POINT HAS PUTIN CHANGED AT ALL IN HIS UP UNTIL NOW MAXIMALIST DEMANDS?

>> I THINK THE MAXIMALIST DEMANDS ARE STILL THERE.

IN OTHER WORDS, TO DENY THE INDEPENDENCE, TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY AND SOVEREIGNTY OF UKRAINE.

AND OUR JOB AS NEGOTIATORS IS TO CHANGE THAT PERSPECTIVE AND TRY TO FIND SOLUTIONS.

I MEAN, THIS WAS A ONE AND A HALF-HOUR CONVERSATION WHERE WE WERE RELAYING MESSAGES FROM UKRAINE TO RUSSIA AND THEN GETTING FOR THE FIRST TIME DIRECTLY MESSAGES FROM PUTIN TO US IN EUROPE.

AND ONE OF THE KEY MESSAGES WAS THAT HE TOOK THE IONS IN ABU DHABI SERIOUSLY AND THAT HE WANTED TO DISCUSS SECURITY AND TERRITORY.

OF COURSE WE ARE NOT IN A POSITION TO START DOING THAT DIRECTLY WITH PRESIDENT PUTIN IN A FIRST PHONE CALL.

BUT OF COURSE WE DO A LOT OF BACK OFFICE WORK, WHICH MEANS WE HELP THE UKRAINIANS BECAUSE WE IN EUROPE ARE NOT MEDIATORS.

WE STAND 100% BEHIND UKRAINE, AND WE TRY TO HELP THEM TO FIND SOLUTIONS.

AND THIS IS WHAT WE'RE DOING IN THE BACK OFFICE, SO THERE ARE NO EASY OR QUICK SOLUTIONS IN THESE SORT OF PEACE MEDIATIONS.

YOU HAVE TO GO STEP BY STEP.

YOU MAKE SMALL ADVANCES.

AND, YOU KNOW, IF WE GET THE PRISONERS OF WAR, YEAH, IT'S HAPPENED BEFORE.

BUT IT'S A MOVE FORWARD.

IF WE GET A DATE FOR NEXT MEETING IT'S A MOVE FORWARD.

IF WE GET EUROPEANS AROUND THE TABLE, IT'S A MOVE FORWARD.

I THINK THE TWO ISSUES, THE BIG KEY ISSUES, SECURITY AND TERRITORY, WILL HAVE TO BE DEALT WITH ON THE LEADERS LEVEL BETWEEN PUTIN AND ZELENSKYY.

THAT IS WHAT WE'RE AIMING FOR.

>> OKAY.

KBEPT PRESIDENT TRUMP SEEM TODAY HAVE WEIGHED IN ON PRECISELY THAT ISSUE TELLING "60 MINUTES" THAT UKRAINE WILL END UP WITH A LITTLE DIFFERENT SHAPE.

WHAT DO YOU READ THAT TO BE?

WHAT SPH.

>> YOU KNOW, I COME FROM A COUNTRY THAT HAS LOST 10% OF OUR COUNTRY TO THE SOVIET UNION IN WORLD WAR II OR IN THE WINTER WAR CONTINUATION, AS WE HAD IT.

I DON'T FEEL LIKE I'M IN ANY POSITION TO TELL THE UKRAINIANS WHAT SHAPE OR FORM UKRAINE WILL BE AFTER THIS WAR.

FOR ME IT IS ABOUT UKRAINE'S INDEPENDENCE, SOVEREIGNTY, AND TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY.

BUT THERE IS CLEARLY RIGHT NOW A DISCUSSION ON SECURITY.

WHAT DOES THAT SECURITY MEAN?

DOES IT MEAN NATO MEMBERSHIP FOR UKRAINE?

DOES IT MEAN ARTICLE V TYPE OF SECURITY GUARANTEES?

WHO IN THAT CASE WILL GIVE THEM?

WILL THERE BE A CEASE- FIRE AT THE LINE OF CONTACT?

WILL THERE BE FOLLOW- UP NEGOTIATIONS ON THAT?

SO IN MANY CASES WE'VE HAD IMPASSES BEFORE WHICH THEN HAVE BEEN SOLVED WITH TIME.

YOU KNOW, WE HAVE SEEN THAT BETWEEN NORTH KOREA AND SOUTH KOREA.

WE'VE SEEN THAT BETWEEN EAST BERLIN AND WEST BERLIN.

WE JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT THE SOLUTION IS AT THIS STAGE.

MY POINT IS THAT WE CANNOT FIND A SOLUTION UNLESS PUTIN AND ZELENSKYY SIT DOWN AND NEGOTIATE.

AND THE PROBLEM IS WE ARE ALL OF US IN THE MIND- SET OF WAR RATHER THAN THE MIND SET OF PEACE.

AND THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO CHANGE.

>> OKAY, SO HERE'S THEN WHAT ONE OF THE PROTAGONISTS, THAT IS THE UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, TOLD ME A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO ABOUT THIS PRECISE ISSUE.

>> DOESN'T MATTER FOR UKRAINE NOT -- IT'S NOT ABOUT THE NAME, THE RESULT.

STOP THE KILLING.

CEASE- FIRE OR FREEZE THE CONFLICT AND HAVE STRONG SECURITY GUARANTEES.

THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, SECURITY GUARANTEES.

SECURITY AND PEACE.

NOT TO GIVE ANY CHANCE FOR RUSSIA, FOR PUTIN OR FOR OTHER PUTINS WHO WILL BE IN THE FUTURE --I DON'T KNOW --TO COME BACK TO UKRAINE AND KILL OUR PEOPLE.

>> SO PRESIDENT STUBB, THAT IS REALLY CLEAR.

IT'S BEEN THE POSITION OF UKRAINE AND I THINK OF ALL OF YOU WHO BACK HIM SINCE THE BEGINNING.

HE SAID A FREEZE.

HE HAS ACCEPTED PRESIDENT TRUMP'S REQUEST, AND THAT WAS MORE THAN A YEAR AGO, FOR A CEASE-FIRE IN PLACE.

PUTIN HAS NOT ACCEPTED IT YET.

TRUMP THEN SAID --SO I WANT TO PLAY THIS FOR YOU AND HAVE YOU COMMENT ON IT.

THIS IS WHAT TRUMP SAYS ABOUT A BROADER EUROPEAN SECURITY ARCHITECTURE.

>> THERE'S GOING TO BE AN AGREEMENT.

IT'S GOING TO BE A BIG AGREEMENT, AND IT'S GOING TO INVOLVE MORE THAN UKRAINE.

IT'S GOING TO BE VERY BIG.

IT'S GOING TO INVOLVE MORE THAN UKRAINE, AND IT COULD EVEN SAY IT MIGHT INVOLVE ALL OF EUROPE.

IT'S GOING TO BE A BIG, BEAUTIFUL AGREEMENT, AND EVERYONE'S GOING TO BE THRILLED.

>> SO, YOU KNOW, COMMENT ON THAT.

>> YEAH, SURE.

I MEAN, LET ME MAKE TWO COMMENTS.

THE FIRST ONE IS ON WHAT ZELENSKYY SAID.

I THINK HE'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

AT THE END OF THE DAY THIS IS ABOUT UKRAINE'S SECURITY.

AND HOW DO WE MAKE SURE THAT THIS NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN?

AND THAT WILL PROBABLY HAPPEN IN TWO PHASES.

I WOULD PREFER THERE TO BE FIRST A CEASE-FIRE, WHICH IS MONITORED.

AND THEN CLEAR SECURITY GUARANTEES FOR UKRAINE.

SO FAR THEY HAVE BEEN DRAFTED BY THE SO-CALLED COALITION OF THE WILLING.

I WOULD PREFER TO SEE YOU CRANE IN NATO AT SOME STAGE.

ON PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS REMARK, I THINK WE HAVE HAD A EUROPEAN SECURITY ARCHITECTURE ACTUALLY EVER SINCE HELSINKI 1975.

AND I DON'T NAME IT ONLY BECAUSE IT'S THE CAPITAL OF FINLAND, BUT THAT'S WHERE WE CREATEED THE ORGANIZATION FOR SECURITY AND COOPERATION IN EUROPE WITH THREE CLEAR BASKETS, WHICH PUT LIMITS ON WHAT STATES CAN DO TO OTHER STATES.

IT TOOK TEN YEARS FOR THOSE NEGOTIATIONS FOR THREE BASKETS.

THEN WE MANIFESTED THAT EVEN STRONGER IN PARIS IN 1990 AND LATER ON IN ISTANBUL.

NOW, WHAT WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT WITH THE EUROPEAN SECURITY ARCHITECTURE IS WE ALREADY HAVE IT, BUT HOW DO WE MAKE SURE IN THE FUTURE THAT THESE KIND OF THINGS DON'T HAPPEN?

AND THIS WILL REQUIRE A DIALOGUE WITH RUSSIA.

SAY FOR INSTANCE A DIALOGUE WITH RUSSIA AND NATO.

THIS REQUIRES A SEQUENCE NOT BEFORE THE WAR IS OVER BUT AFTER THE WAR IS OVER.

THAT'S WHEN WE ALL NEED TO DISCUSS SECURITY.

>> OKAY.

WELL, LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT, YOU ARE AT THE COP SUMMIT IN ANTAYLA, TURKIYE.

SINCE UKRAINE WAS INVADED, SINCE THE WAR ON IRAN, CLEARLY FOSSIL FUELS HAVE BECOME, YOU KNOW, THE ENERGY MECHANISM OF CHOICE MOCH .

PEOPLE ARE DOUBLING DOWN ON THAT.

WHAT IMPRESSION DID YOU GET FROM THAT ON COP HOW COUNTRIES LIKE YOURS CAN GET BACK TO THEIR SUSTAINABILITY TARGETS?

>> WELL, TO START OFF WITH I THINK THE SAD THING IS WE'RE NOW SO ENGAGED IN CONFLICTS AROUND THE WORLD, AND SOME STUDIES SAY THERE ARE 65 LIVE CONFLICTS AND WARS, AND THAT PUTS CLIMATE CHANGE ON THE BACK BURNER.

AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S A GOOD THING.

BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY IF THE TEMPERATURE OF THE EARTH CONTINUES TO RAISE NOW SAY OVER 1.

5 DEGREES, WE'RE GOING TO GET CLIMATE-RELATED CONFLICTS MERGING.

SO WE NEED TO START DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

THAT'S WHY THE C. O. P. IS IMPORTANT.

COUNTRIES LIKE FINLAND 96% OF OUR ELECTRICITY IS CLEAN.

IT'S NUCLEAR, IT'S HYDRO, IT'S WIND.

28% OF OUR ENERGY PALLET IS ELECTRICITY.

WE NEED TO PUSH THAT FORWARD BECAUSE THE TRUTH IS WE'RE NOT GOING TO REDUCE ENERGY CONSUMPTION.

WE NEED TO MAKE IT CLEANER.

AND FOR THAT YOU NEED THREE THINGS.

AND A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT THAT.

THERE'S A REALLY GOOD INITIATIVE HERE WHICH IS CALLED 35 BY 35, WHICH MEANS THAT THE WORLD SHOULD BE 35% ELECTRIC BY 2035.

IF WE MEET THAT TARGET, THAT'S ALREADY GOING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

BUT I HAVE TO ADMIT THAT, YOU KNOW, WE WERE TALKING A LOT ABOUT CONFLICTS.

JUST TO GIVE YOU AN ANECDOTE, CHRISTIANE, I LEFT DINNER EARLY FROM A TABLE WHERE WE HAD THE PRIME MINISTER OF TURKIYE, SO THE HOST.

WE HAD THE PRIME MINISTER OF AUSTRALIA, THE PRIME MINISTER OF PAKISTAN, THE SECRETARY-GENERAL OF THE U. N. , THE PRESIDENT OF SYRIA, THE PRESIDENT OF IRAN, MYSELF, AND THE PRESIDENT OF UZBEKISTAN.

AND YOU CAN IMAGINE THE TALK WAS A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT CONFLICT THAN IT WAS ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE.

AN INTERESTING CONVERSATION IN AND OF ITSELF I HAVE TO ADMIT.

>> YES.

I CAN JUST SEE THE PICTURE YOU'VE JUST PAINTED, SO I GET IT.

PRESIDENT STUBB, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED FOR BEING WITH US FROM TURKIYE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> MY PLEASURE.

> >> THROUGHOUT HIS LONG AND STORIED CAREER THE MUSICIAN DAVID BYRNE HAS SEEN IT ALL --FROM MEGA-STARDOM, FOUBLDING THE POP ROCK GROUP "TALKING HEADS" TO HIS OWN SOLO SUCCESS.

HE REMAINS A CULTURAL STUFF STONE FOR GENERATIONS.

THIS YEAR HE'S HAVING A MAJOR MOMENT DURING HIS LATEST ALBUM "WHO IS THE SKY? "

HE'S BEEN NAME CHECKED IN MADONNA'S LATEST ALBUM AND BEEN FEATURED IN IT GIRLS FOR OLIVIA RODRIGO AND CHAPPELL ROAN.

HE'S GOT A NEW BOOK OUT "SLEEPING BEAUTIES".

WE SPOKE ABOUT HOW WHEN WE MET HERE IN LONDON.

DAVID BYRNE, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON.

>> "SLEEPING BEAUTIES" IS ACTUALLY A REALLY INTERESTING CONCEPT, AND I WANT TO READ YOU SOMETHING THAT STRUCK ME.

"THE NEW YORK TIMES" SAID THAT YOU READ ACEOTERIC ACADEMIC JOURNS FOR FUN AND YOU USE THEM TO ENTERTAIN AND DELIGHT US ALL.

DO YOU REALLY?

>> I MEAN, SOMETIMES.

SOME OF THE ACADEMIC ARTICLES ARE A LITTLE BIT ACADEMIC, BUT I DID STUMBLE ON THESE PHRASE "SLEEPING BEAUTIES" ON AN ACADEMIC PAPER.

WELL, THIS IDEA IN THEIR CASE --IN THE CASE OF THE PAPER THAT SOME PAPERS THAT COME OUT WILL GET A LITTLE BIT OF ATTENTION AND THEN BE FORGOTTEN ABOUT AND REDISCOVERED.

THEY WERE JUST THINKING ABOUT PAPERS AND THE NUMBERS OF CITATIONS THEY GET AND ALL THAT SORT OF THING.

AND I THOUGHT WELL, WAIT A MINUTE, I KNOW THIS PHENOMENA FROM, WELL, EVERYTHING -- MUSIC, PAINTINGS, BOOKS, EVERYTHING YOU CAN THINK OF.

WE ALL KNOW THINGS WHERE SOME THINGS HAD AN INFLUENCE, HAD SOME ATTENTION, AND THEN WAS FORGOTTEN FOR YEARS OR DECADES OR WHATEVER.

>> YEAH.

SO "SLEEPING BEAUTY" AS WE KNOW FROM THE FAIRY TALE IS ABOUT SLEEPING AND BEING WOKEN UP BY A HANDSOME PRINCE.

>> YES.

>> WHO WAKES UP THESE SLEEPING BEAUTIES?

>> ALL SORTS OF THINGS.

COULD BE THE PRINCE OR PRINCESS.

COULD BE A CHAMPION, SOMEONE WHO SAYS I LOVE THIS ARTIST, THIS PERSON DESERVES MORE RECOGNITION.

AND THEY START PROMOTING THIS PERSON.

AND SOMETIMES THAT CAN BE VERY SELFLESS, KIND OF ASTOUNDING THAT SOMETIMES THE ORIGINAL PERSON WITH THE IDEA --WHATEVER IT IS -- IS DEAD, LONG DEAD.

SO THEY DON'T STAND TO BENEFIT.

SO SOMETIMES THIS CHAMPION REALLY HAS, YOU KNOW.

>> AND DID IT ATTRACT YOU BECAUSE OF THE ARTISTIC QUOTIENT OR WAS IT ALL SORT OF HUMAN ENDEAVOR.

YOU TALK A LOT ABOUT THE ARTIST WHO MAY NOT HAVE NOT BEEN, YOU KNOW, RECOGNIZED IN THEIR OWN TIME.

OR WHO FOR INSTANCE GONE THROUGH A FALLOW PERIOD OR A DORMANT PERIOD.

>> SOME SURPRISING ONES.

SOME SURPRISING ONES.

VEMERE.

>> RELLEE.

AND HE JUST HAD A BLOCKBUSTER EXPEDITION IN THE LAST FEW YEARS.

>> HUGE POPULAR ONES.

OTHER ONES, BOTTICELLI --PEOPLE WHO ARE NOW -- THERE'S BOTTICELLI TEA TOWELS AND EVERYTHING ELSE.

BUT THERE WAS A PERIOD WHEN THEY'D GO OUT OF FASHION.

AND YOU KIND OF REALIZE, HMM, THINGS COME AND GO OUT OF FASHION.

AND NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN SOMETIMES THE CONTEXT CHANGES, THE CULTURE CHANGES.

AND REALIZE OH, THINGS GO UP AND DOWN.

>> SO IT IS LIKE AN INEXORABLE UP AND DOWN THING OR ARE THERE FORCES THAT EITHER REJECT THEM AND THEN ACTIVELY, YOU KNOW, WELCOME THEM BACK AGAIN?

OR IS IT JUST SOMETHING THAT ALWAYS HAPPENS TO EVERYBODY?

>> THE REASON THEY GO OUT OF FAVOR IS KIND OF THE USUAL SUSPECTS -- SEXISM, RACISM, INSTITUTIONAL FOOT DRAGGING, ALL THOSE KINDS OF THINGS.

STUFF WE KIND OF KNOW ABOUT AND WE GO, OKAY, WE'RE NOT HEARING ABOUT THAT, WE'RE NOT REALLY LEARNING ANYTHING.

SO I KIND OF FLIPPED IT AND SAID WHAT ARE THE REASONS THEY GOT REMEMBERED, THEY GOT REDISCOVERED.

THAT'S THE STUFF THAT MIGHT BE USEFUL.

IT MIGHT BE CHAMPION, IT MIGHT BE THE TECHNOLOGY ARRIVES THAT ALLOWS AN IDEA TO BE PROVEN TRUE OR FALSE.

OR LET'S THINK OF SOME OTHER ONES.

>> WELL, CONCRETE.

I AM JUST FASCINATED BY CONCRETE.

NEVER EVEN THOUGHT THAT THESE ANCIENT BUILDINGS WERE STILL STANDING BECAUSE OF ANYTHING OTHER THAN THEY WERE GREAT.

BUT YOU GO INTO THE NOTION OF HOW ANCIENT ROME DEVELOPED OR USED OR CREATED CONCRETE.

>> YES.

ROMAN CONCRETE, THE DOME OF THE PANTHEON IS THE LARGEST DOME IN THE WORLD OF UNREINFORCED CONCRETE, AND IT'S 2,000 YEARS OLD.

IT'S DOING FINE.

>> WHY?

>> WELL, THEY HAD A RECIPE.

THEY USED LIME, AND THEY CREATED THESE LITTLE WHITE SPECKS CALLED LIME CLASTS SO THAT IF A CRACK DEVELOPED --AND THEY ALWAYS DO --WATER GETS IN.

THE WATER WOULD DISSOLVE THE LIME, AND IT WOULD RECRYSTALLIZE AND HEAL UP THE CRACK.

BUT AT SOME POINT THE RECIPE WAS THERE BUT DISREGARDED.

THE STUFF WAS KIND OF REINVENTED BUT NOT WITH THE ROMAN RECIPE.

SO THE CONCRETE THAT HAS BEEN USED FOR THE LAST 100 YEARS OR SO HAS THE REBAR TO REINFORCE IT, AND IT'S RATED BY THE COMPANIES THAT MAKE IT TO LAST 50 YEARS, 5-0.

MAYBE 100 SOMETIMES.

THEN YOU GO WE'RE RIGHT -- THE CLOCK'S TICKING.

THAT'S A LOT OF BRIDGES AND HIGHWAY OVERPASSES.

>> AND WE'VE SEEN --WE'VE SEEN SOME OF THE CATASTROPHES.

YEAH.

WHY DID THAT ANCIENT RECIPE GO OUT-OF-DATE?

OR IS IT THE INEXORABLE, WOW, I DON'T KNOW, WE ARE IN THE 20 th CENTURY AND WE CAN BUILD BETTER AND WE'RE MORE SCIENTIFICALLY ADVANCED?

>> IT'S A LITTLE BIT MORE HUBRIS.

MORE THAN A BIT.

THERE'S A LOT OF THAT.

SEEMS LIKE A HUMAN TENDENCY TO THINK THAT, WELL, WE KNOW MORE THAN THOSE WHO HAVE GONE BEFORE US, THAT KNOWLEDGE ACCUMULATES, AND THEREFORE WHATEVER WE'RE DOING MUST BE BETTER THAN WHAT THEY DID IN THE PAST.

AND, WELL, THE EXAMPLES IN THE BOOK SO THAT'S JUST NOT TRUE.

SOMETIMES SOMETHING WAS DONE IN THE PAST THAT'S BETTER THAN WHAT WE DO NOW.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE -- IN BARCELONA BY GAUDI.

I SAW IT BUT IN ITS TIME IT WAS CONSIDERED RILEGIOUS, UGLY, EVERYTHING.

HOW DID GAUDI GET BACK TO BEING FASHIONABLE?

>> HE HAD A NUMBER OF CHAMPIONS.

AND ONE OF THE INTERESTING ONES WAS SALVADOR DALI, WHO ARRANGED FOR --THERE WAS SOME KIND OF FASHION SHOOT THING IN BARCELONA.

AND HE ARRANGED IT THEY WOULD SHOOT IT IN FRONT OF SIGRATA FAMILIA, AND HE TALKED ABOUT IT AND WROTE ABOUT IT, AND OTHERS WOULD PICK UP ON IT.

AND OF COURSE THIS WAS YEARS AFTER GAUDI'S DEATH.

AND SO THERE START TODAY BE A REVIVAL AND THE TOURIST INDUSTRY HELPED.

>> AND DO YOU THINK THAT SOME OF THESE PEOPLE WHETHER IT WAS --I MEAN, TO STAY WITH THE ARTIST VAN GOGH, WHO COULDN'T SELL A PAINTING IN HIS LIFETIME, OR, YOU KNOW, OTHER CREATORS.

DID ANY OF THESE GREAT CREATORS GET RECOGNIZED IN THEIR TIME BEFORE THEIR --BEFORE THEIR IDEAS WENT DORMANT?

>> OH, YEAH, LOTS OF THEM.

WOW.

BOTTICELLI.

>> RIGHT.

>> THE PAINTER WAS --HE WAS --GOT LOTS OF COMMISSIONS.

HE WAS ASKED BY THE POPE TO PAINT THE SISTINE CHAPEL.

NOT THE CEILING.

ANOTHER GUY GOT THAT JOB.

>> YEAH, NOT THAT GUY.

I NEVER SAW.

WHERE IS THE BOTTICELLI STUFF?

>> IT'S ON THE WALLS.

IT'S ON THE WALLS.

>> I BETTER GO LOOK NEXT TIME.

>> YOU'RE LOOKING UP.

>> OKAY.

SO HE WAS RESPECTED, REVERED ENOUGH THEN.

>> REALLY.

YES, VERY POPULAR.

>> AND NOW EVERYBODY HAS "THE BIRTH OF VENUS. "

THAT'S, AS YOU SAID, ON EVERY TEA TOWEL.

>> TEA TOWELS, IT'S ON WATCHES, EVERYTHING.

THERE WAS A RELIGIOUS REFORMER WHO CAME TO FLORENCE DURING BOTTICELLI'S LIFETIME WHO RAILED AGAINST CORRUPTION IN THE CHURCH AND THE CHURCH TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE POOR.

ALL OF THIS IS TRUE, AND PEOPLE SAID, OKAY, THIS GUY, WE'RE WITH HIM.

DRAIN THE SWAMP, HE'S GOING TO DO THIS.

WELL, HE DID DO SOME OF THAT, BUT HE WAS ALSO A BIT OF A RELIGIOUS FANATIC, AND HE TOLD PEOPLE YOU'RE LIVING DECADENT LIVES.

THROW OUT YOUR GOOD FURNITURE, THROW OUT YOUR MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS.

NO MORE PAINTINGS OF THESE PAGAN SCENES LIKE "BIRTH OF VENUS" OR WHATEVER.

THIS WAS THE BONFIRE OF THE VANITIES.

BURNING BEAUTIFUL FURNITURE IN THE PLAZAS AND STREETS OF FLORENCE.

NEEDLESS TO SAY THAT WAS THE END OF BOTTICELLI.

NOT THE END OF HIS CAREER, BUT THE END OF HIM DOING THOSE REALLY POPULAR PAINTINGS.

SO GRADUALLY HE FALLS OUT OF FAVOR UNTIL HE DIES PENNILESS.

>> AND THEN HE COMES BACK HOW?

WHO -- I DON'T REMEMBER THE DATE.

>> I - -IT SEEMED TO ME THAT THERE WAS --WITH THE ENLIGHTENMENT AND ALL THESE PHILOSOPHERS KIND OF QUESTIONING RELIGION AND THEN AFTER THAT THE ROMANTIC MOVEMENT.

>> YEAH.

>> WHICH APPRECIATED BEAUTY AND PASSION.

THOSE KIND OF THINGS WERE AN ACCEPTED POINT OF VIEW.

AND THEN THE PRE- RAFF LIOLITES HERE WHO DID THESE MYTH LOGICAL SCENES WITH VERY HANDSOME PEOPLE.

VERY, VERY SIMILAR TO BOTTICELLI'S WORK.

YOU CAN SEE, OKAY, AT THIS POINT LIKE THE GAUDI, THERE WAS TOURISM COMING TO ITALY AND WHATEVER CITY FATHERS OF FLORENCE SAID, LET'S PUT SOME OF THE BOTTICELLIS THAT WE HAVE IN FLORENCE IN THE MUSEUM.

THEY MIGHT LIKE TO SEE THOSE, WHICH THEY DID.

>> THE REST IS HISTORY.

SO THE OTHER THING THAT WAS REALLY INTERESTING TO READ AND WE KIND OF KNOW THIS BECAUSE IT'S IN OUR LIFETIME NOW, SOME OF THESE GREAT IDEAS TO MITIGATE SOLAR PANELS, WIND TURBINES, WHATEVER ARE SUCCESSFUL.

AND YET POLITICALLY AND CORPORATE, THE LOBBYISTS WHO DON'T WANT TO SEE ANY OF THAT SUCCEED ARE SUCCESSFUL IN KILLING THEIR IDEAS.

AND TELL ME ABOUT THE SOLAR PANELS BECAUSE IT ACTUALLY ENRAGES ME THAT STUFF WHEN YOU KNOW WHY AN IDEA FALLS OUT OF FAVOR NOT BECAUSE IT'S USELESS BUT BECAUSE IT GOES AGAINST THEIR CORPORATE INTERESTS.

>> SOLAR PANELS WERE IN A WAY ACCIDENTLY DEVELOPED BY A GUY IN THE EARLY PART OF THE LAST CENTURY.

SAY ACCIDENTLY BECAUSE HE HAPPENED TO COMBINE THE RIGHT INGREDIENTS --THE RIGHT KINDS OF COPPER AND DIFFERENT METAL --WHERE IT HAD THE RIGHT EFFECT TO GENERATE SUNLIGHT AND ELECTRICITY BETTER THAN HE THOUGHT IT WOULD.

AND HE WAS FAIRLY SUCCESSFUL, AND THEN HE GETS KIDNAPPED.

HE GETS KIDNAPPED.

>> BY THE LOBBY?

>> NOBODY KNOWS REALLY.

REALLY.

BUT, I MEAN, YOU CAN COME UP WITH THE CONSPIRACIES.

BUT HE GETS KIDNAPPED AND TOLD YOU HAVE TO GIVE US YOUR PATENTS --GIVE UP YOUR PATENTS AND WE'LL BUY YOU A NICE HOUSE WHERE YOU CAN RETIRE.

AND, OKAY, THERE WAS COMPETITION.

EDISON WAS A BIG COMPETITOR.

EDISON WAS WITH THOSE LIGHT BULBS AND EVERYTHING.

HE WAS IN THE ELECTRIC BUSINESS.

>> DO YOU THINK EDISON PLAYED A DESTABILIZING ROLE HERE?

>> COULD BE.

BUT IT'S HARD TO SAY.

I MEAN, HE'S NOT --HE'S NOT BENEATH OR ABOVE DOING KIND OF STUNTS AND THINGS TO KIND OF --CUTTING THE LEGS OFF YOUR COMPETITION WAS A KIND OF COMMON PRACTICE.

AND EVENTUALLY GOT REDISCOVERED AGAIN.

>> YEAH, IT GOT REDISCOVERED.

BUT NOW YOU HAVE A PRESIDENT IN THE UNITED STATES WHO'S DOING EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO ROLL BACK EVEN THE ADVANCES ON THAT TECHNOLOGY, WHICH IS CHEAPER THAN FOSSIL FUELS.

BUT NONETHELESS THE PROGRESS IN SCIENCE LIKE ON SUSTAINABLE ENERGY, ET CETERA, HAS BEEN THREATENED BY THIS ADMINISTRATION.

DO YOU THINK THAT --THAT THAT CAN CHANGE NOW?

DO YOU THINK IT'S -- I MEAN, IS IT SLEEPING?

DOES IT NEED TO BE AWOKEN, OR HAVE THE PEOPLE SPOKEN IN GENERAL?

>> I THINK AS YOU IMPLIED, A LOT OF THINGS GOT DISMANTLED VERY, VERY QUICKLY.

AND IT'LL TAKE A WHILE TO KIND OF PUT STUFF BACK TOGETHER.

THIS GUY, COVE, WHO KIND OF BUILT THESE EARLY SOLAR PANELS.

SOMEONE ASKS, OKAY, IF THOSE HAD BEEN DEVELOPED FURTHER, WE'D HAVE BEEN 20 YEARS AHEAD AT LEAST OF WHERE WE ARE.

THERE'D HAVE BEEN KIND OF MORE --THE PLACE WHERE THEY BECOME ECONOMICALLY -- >> WOULD HAVE BEEN EARLIER.

>> WOULD HAVE BEEN EARLIER, AND THINGS WOULD HAVE BEEN CHANGED.

NOW, AS YOU MENTIONED, TEXAS -- >> YEAH.

BEFORE IT WENT BLUE.

>> BEFORE IT WENT BLUE WAS THE BIGGEST WIND AND SOLAR THING.

AND EVERYWHERE THEY WERE HAVING --MAKING SO MUCH OF IT THEY WERE SELLING IT TO OTHER STATES.

POLITICS DID NOT GET IN THE WAY BECAUSE THIS WAS ECONOMICALLY GREAT FOR THEM.

>> OKAY, SO THAT'S INTERESTING.

IN THE FUTURE WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO GET FROM THIS BOOK?

>> OH.

>> BECAUSE YOU DO TALK ABOUT RABBIT HOLES.

YOU TALK ABOUT GOING DOWN RABBIT HOLES.

WHEN I HEAR RABBIT HOLES I DON'T LIKE IT BECAUSE I THINK IT'S CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

BUT YOU SAY RABBIT HOLES CAN BE CONSTRUCTIVE.

>> YEAH, I IN KIND OF PUTTING THIS BOOK TOGETHER, SOME THING SAID STOOD OUTLET.

ONE IS THE THE CROSS DISCIPLINE.

OFTEN THE PERSON WHO DISCOVERS THE SLEEPING BEAUTY IS SOMEONE OUTSIDE THAT DISCIPLINE, OR OFTEN IT'S DIFFERENT DISCIPLINES TALKING TO ONE ANOTHER.

WHICH IS --WE ALWAYS TALK ABOUT IT, BUT IT DOESN'T ALWAYS HAPPEN.

THERE'S THE SENSE OF HUMAN -- OUR HUBRIS, THAT WE THINK WE KNOW BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE OR EVERYONE BEFORE US.

SO WE KNOW BETTER THAN -- THE PAST IS --WE'VE LEARNED FROM IT, WE'VE ACQUIRED THAT KNOWLEDGE, AND THERE'S A SENSE THAT --THE FEELING THAT KNOWLEDGE ONCE ACQUIRED IS NEVER LOST.

BUT IT DOES GET LOST.

IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.

AND THE WHOLE IDEA OF BEING OPEN MINDED AND CURIOUS AND AWARE OF THE THINGS THAT ARE GOING ON THAT YOU MIGHT NOT EXPECT.

>> SO, DAVID BYRNE, YOU HAVE BEEN CONSTANTLY IN FASHION AND PART OF THE CONVERSATION SINCE YOU STARTED DESPITE WHERE CULTURE IS GOING AND DESPITE ALL THE OTHER, YOU KNOW, FORCES.

AND YOU'RE STILL PERFORMING EVEN WITH SOME OF THE BEST PEOPLE RIGHT NOW OR RATHER THE YOUNGEST, MOST FASHIONABLE PEOPLE RIGHT NOW -- HARRY STYLES, OLIVIA RODRIGO.

HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR THAT?

>> I THINK THERE'S A WHOLE GENERATION NOW THAT MAYBE --MAYBE DUE TO STREAMING.

I HAVE ECONOMIC ISSUES WITH STREAMING SERVICES.

BUT ONE OF THE GOOD THINGS THAT IT DOES IS IT ALLOWS PEOPLE TO EXPERIMENT AND LISTEN TO DIFFERENT KINDS OF MUSIC AND NOT --IT DOESN'T COST THEM ANYTHING.

NOTHING EXTRA IF YOU WANT TO TRY THIS, LISTEN TO THIS, LISTEN TO THAT.

SO YOU HAVE THIS GENERATION THAT CAN EXPLORE IF THEY --IF THEY WANT TO.

AND I THINK SOME OF IT'S A LITTLE BIT DUE TO THAT.

I'M GOING TO PUSH BACK AND SAY THERE WAS PERIODS WHERE I WENT FROM PRETTY NICE SUCCESS TO BACK TO PLAYING CLUBS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

THINGS DO GO UP AND DOWN.

>> REALLY?

>> OH, YEAH.

>> OKAY.

AND I GUESS ONE LAST ONE BECAUSE I HAVE TO ASK YOU.

A. I. , HOW DAMAGING OR NOT IS THAT DO YOU THINK?

AND THE WHOLE THING WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT, NOT JUST IN MUSIC BUT IN CURIOSITY, IN ADVENTURE, IN DISCOVERING SLEEPING BEAUTIES?

>> WOW, THAT'S A PRETTY BIG ONE.

>> IT IS.

>> IN CERTAIN AREAS, IN CERTAIN VERY SPECIFIC AREAS IT CAN BE A GREAT TOOL.

BUT IN OTHER AREAS WHERE IT KIND OF REPLACES --THERE'S THIS WHOLE THING OF ENABLING TECHNOLOGY VERSUS REPLACING TECHNOLOGY.

WHEN IT'S ENABLING, THAT'S REALLY GREAT.

WHEN IT'S REPLACING, THERE'S GOING TO BE TROUBLE.

>> THAT'S A VERY GOOD WAY TO END.

DAVID BYRNE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

"SLEEPING BEAUTIES".

>> THANKS VERY MUCH.

THANKS HAVE HAVING ME ON.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> A NEW SOCIO POLITICAL PHENOMENON EMERGED IN THE 2026 MID-TERMS.

AMERICANS ARE PUSHING BACK AGAINST A. I. DATA CENTERS, WHICH AMERICA HAS IDENTIFIED AS THE STRONGEST ECONOMIC GROWTH ENGINE AHEAD.

FROM -WIDE RAISES TO LOCAL BALLOT INITIATIVES, VOTERS DEMONSTRATED A SWEEPING SUPPORT FOR A TOUGHER STANCE ON DATA CENTERS IF NOT OUTRIGHT OPPOSITION TO THEIR CONTINUED DEVELOPMENT.

"THE ATLANTIC" STAFF WRITER GEORGE PACKER HAS BEEN DIGGING INTO THIS THORNY ISSUE, AND HERE HE IS WITH WALTER ISAACSON.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

AND GEORGE PACKER, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, WALTER.

>> RIGHT BEFORE THESE MID-TERM ELECTIONS, YOU WROTE A PIECE IN "THE ATLANTIC" CALLED "THE GREAT DATA CENTER REBELLION. "

BOY, YOU TURNED OUT TO BE RIGHT.

THE ELECTION REALLY WAS A REBELLION PARTLY BECAUSE OF DATA CENTERS.

BUT EXPLAIN TO ME WHY IS THERE THIS BACKLASH AGAINST DATA CENTERS?

>> WELL, I CERTAINLY DIDN'T DISCOVER IT.

IT HAD BEEN GOING ON FOR A GOOD PART OF A YEAR.

I WAS READING ABOUT THESE MORATORIUMS BEING PASSED BY LOCAL COMMUNITIES IN WISCONSIN, IN TEXAS.

TEXAS WAS INTERESTING.

I HAD NO IDEA THAT THERE WOULD BE, YOU KNOW, THE LAND OF YOUR OLD SUBJECT ELON MUSK --THAT THERE WOULD BE A REBELLION AGAINST THE INCREDIBLE CONSTRUCTION BOOM OF THESE MASSIVE DATA CENTERS IN TEXAS.

I FOUND A SMALL TOWN IN IOWA RIGHT ON THE MISSISSIPPI RIVER CALLED CLINTON THAT'S SORT OF A FADING AGRICULTURAL INDUSTRIAL TOWN.

THERE USED TO BE A LOGGING CENTER AND THEN BECAME AGRICULTURE PROCESSING AND HAS ABOUT 24,000 PEOPLE AND HAD A DATA CENTER HEADED THEIR WAY.

SO I WENT OUT THERE JUST IN TIME TO ATTEND COUNCIL MEETINGS AND TALK TO SOME OF THE LEADERS OF BOTH THE OPPOSITION TO THE DATA CENTER AND THE LOCAL OFFICIALS AND SORT OF CHAMBER OF COMMERCE TYPES WHO WANTED IT.

AND WHAT I FOUND, WALTER, WAS THAT THERE WERE LOTS OF COMPLAINTS ABOUT WATER, NOISE, POWER CONSUMPTION, JUST THE MASSIVE EYESORE OF A 832 FOOTBALL FIELDS.

THAT WOULD BE THE SCALE OF THE AREA WHERE THIS DATA CENTER WOULD COME.

SOMETHING LIKE 11 MILLION SQUARE FEET.

BUT IT WOULD BE RIGHT IN THESE CORN FIELDS WITH HOUSES NEARBY ON THE WESTERN SIDE OF CLINTON.

BUT WHAT WAS REALLY STRIKING TO ME WAS THE CORE OF THE OPPOSITION WAS THESE FOLKS FELT COMPLETELY IGNORED.

THIS WAS BEING RAMMED DOWN THEIR THROATS WITH LOTS OF NDAs AND PRIVATE MEETINGS, SO THEY HAD TO KIND OF DIG IT ALL OUT WITH FOIA REQUESTS TO FIND OUT WHAT WAS EVEN HAPPENING.

IT SEEMED AS IF THEY WERE NOT BEING CONSIDERED.

THEIR CONTROL HAD BEEN TAKEN AWAY FROM THEIR OWN COMMUNITY.

AND THAT WAS THE --I'D SAY THE PSYCHOLOGICAL ROOT OF THE REBELLION WAS THE SENSE THAT THESE GIANT CORPORATIONS, ENTITIES FROM FAR AWAY WERE COMING INTO THEIR TIME WITHOUT A BUY OR LEAVE AND WE'RE GOING TO CHANGE THEIR LIVES FOREVER.

AND I WOULD SAY THE SENSE OF THE LITTLE GUY BEING PUSHED AROUND BY THE BIG GUYS WAS A PRETTY FUNDAMENTAL EMOTION IN THIS PAST MID-TERM ELECTION.

AND ALTHOUGH I DIDN'T TALK ABOUT POLITICS TOO MUCH WITH THE FOLKS IN CLINTON, I THINK THAT WAS KIND OF AT THE BOTTOM OF THE REBELLION.

>> BUT TO WHAT EXTENT DO YOU THINK IT'S A PROXY JUST NOT BEING COMFORTABLE WITH ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AND SUPER INTELLIGENCE AT ALL?

>> I PUSH THEM ON THAT BECAUSE I'M UNCOMFORTABLE WITH IT.

AND THEY WERE MIXED.

YOU KNOW, ONE OF THEM WORKED IN TECH AND HAD NOTHING PER SE AGAINST TECH OR EVEN A. I. OTHERS WERE MORE SKEPTICAL OF IT.

I THINK THE MAIN THING, WALTER, IS NOT SO MUCH THAT THEY WERE OPPOSED TO TECHNOLOGICAL PROGRESS, BUT THAT THEY DIDN'T SEE WHAT WAS IN IT FOR THEM.

IF IT'S RURAL LECK TRIFIICATION LIKE IN THE '30S A FARM IS GOING TO KNOW WHAT'S THEY'RE GOING TO GET OUT OF IT.

BUT THE PEOPLE WITH A. I. DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS GOING TO BE GOOD FOR THEM.

THEY THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO BE GOOD FOR INVESTORS AND GOOD FOR SILICON VALLEY.

AND MAYBE THEY HEARD ABOUT THE GREAT A. I. RACE WITH CHINA.

IT WAS ALL TOO FAR AWAY AND TOO REMOTE FROM THEIR LIVES FOR THERE TO BE A CASE FOR WHY THEY SHOULD BE WILLING TO LET THESE -- THESE MEGA-TECH COMPANIES COME IN AND CHANGE THEIR LIVES WITHOUT ANY OBVIOUS BENEFIT TO THEM.

>> BUT DO YOU THINK MAYBE THAT FEELING THAT THERE WAS NOTHING IN A. I. FOR THEM, AND IT WAS ALL A DANGER PARTLY COMES FROM THE A. I. COMPANIES AND THEIR LEADERS TALKING ABOUT THIS COULD LEAD TO DOOM AND HACKING AND ALL THAT INSTEAD OF EXPLAINING WHAT I THINK A. I. COULD DO --WHETHER IT'S IN TERMS OF DRUG DISCOVERIES, HEALTHCARE, AND THE MANY PRODUCTIVITY GAINS THAT COULD COME FROM IT.

>> WELL, I DON'T THINK THOSE ARGUMENTS HAD BECOME THE MAIN CONCERN OF PEOPLE IN CLINTON, IOWA.

I DIDN'T HEAR ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE EXTINCTION OF HUMANITY THAT WE'VE BEEN HEARING ABOUT FROM SOME OF THE YOUNG GUYS WHO WERE COMING OUT OF ANTHROPIC AND OpenAI AND TELLING THE WORLD THERE'S A 20% CHANCE THAT HUMANITY WILL BE WIPED OUT IN THE NEXT DECADE.

THAT WAS NOT WHAT THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT.

BUT I ALSO THINK A. I. IS THIS GIANT ABSTRACTION, AND A DATA CENTER IS A GIANT ABSTRACTION.

THERE'S NOBODY IN IT.

IT'S JUST A HUGE BANK OF COMPUTERS, ROW AFTER ROW OF COMPUTERS.

SO WHEN THEY HEAR ABOUT JOBS, THEY KNOW THERE'S SOMETHING A LITTLE BIT FARCICAL ABOUT THAT.

THE WHOLE THING HAS THIS QUALITY OF BOTH BEING TOO BIG TO GET, YOU KNOW, YOUR HANDS AROUND AND THEN TOO CLOSE TO BE COMFORTABLE WITH BECAUSE THEY KNOW IT IS GOING TO CREEP INTO EVERY CORNER OF THEIR LIFE.

A LOT OF THEM DID TALK ABOUT iPHONES AND WHAT THEY'VE DONE TO THEIR CHILDREN AND TO THEIR SORT OF FAMILY DYNAMICS.

AND WE'VE LIVED THROUGH THAT.

AND I THINK FOR THEM A. I. SEEMED LIKE IT MIGHT BECOME THE NEXT AND MUCH BIGGER VERSION OF THE DISRUPTIONS CAUSED BY THE iPHONE, WHICH AS WE KNOW, HAVE NOT BEEN ALTOGETHER WONDERFUL FOR FAMILIES AND FOR OUR SOCIETY.

>> WAIT, WAIT, WAIT.

YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT THAT SOME, COME IS THE DISRUPTIONS OF SOCIAL MEDIA.

THE DISRUPTION ON LIFE HASN'T BEEN GREAT.

YOU ACTUALLY THINK THIS REVOLT AGAINST DATA CENTERS AND THINGS IS PART OF A LARGER FEELING THAT OVER THE PAST 20 OR 30 YEARS SOCIAL MEDIA AND TECHNOLOGY HASN'T TOTALLY BEEN OUR FRIEND?

>> WELL, LOOK, WALTER, I'M A TECHNOPHOBE.

I MEAN, I HAVE TRIED TO STAY AWAY FROM SOCIAL MEDIA.

I HAVE A SMART PHONE, BUT I REGARD IT AS BEING SOMETHING OF A A FRENEMY IN MY POCKET.

I'M SUSPICIOUS OF MONETIZATION, WHICH IS WHAT TECHNOLOGY HAS BECOME ABOUT.

AND I AM DEEPLY SUSPICIOUS OF A. I. AS NOT JUST THE MONETIZATION OF MY ATTENTION BUT REPLACEMENT OF MY ATTENTION.

AND FOR ME AS A WRITER AND SOMEONE THAT THINKS FOR THEMSELVES.

THOSE THINGS DID COME UP.

IT WAS A LITTLE MORE ABSTRACT THAN THAT.

BUT I DON'T THINK THE TECH COMPANIES HAVE DONE THEMSELVES ANY FAVORS BY SAYING AT THE SAME TIME THIS COULD DESTROY US, BUT IT HAS TO HAPPEN AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.

THAT'S A WEIRD MESSAGE TO HEAR.

AS IF THEY CAN'T HELP THEMSELVES.

THEY HAVE TO DO IT EVEN THOUGH THEY KNOW THERE'S THIS WHATEVER, 10, 20% CHANCE.

ALSO THEY KNEW THERE WAS TON OF MONEY POURING INTO THE ELECTION COMING FROM THE TECH INDUSTRY.

IT'S CONSIDERED --I THINK IT'S BEGINNING TO BECOME, WALTER, SOMETHING LIKE THE TRUSTS IN THE EARLY 1900s --THE OIL TRUSTS, JP MORGAN, THE RAILROAD TRUSTS.

THESE HUGE MONOPOLIES OR QUASI-MONOPOLIES WHO HAVE TOO MUCH POWER, ECONOMIC POWER, WHICH BECOMES POLITICAL POWER AND BEGINS TO PUSH PEOPLE AROUND AND OUT OF THEIR OWN LIVES SO THEY NO LONGER FEEL THEY HAVE CONTROL.

I THINK WE'RE SEEING A BIT OF A RETURN TO THAT TRANSITION FROM THE GILDED AGE TO THE PROGRESSIVE ERA.

AND THIS ELECTION WAS ABOUT ECONOMIC POPULISM.

AND DATA CENTERS BECAME I'D SAY MORE THAN ANYTHING A SYMBOL.

THEY BECAME A SYMBOL OF TOO MUCH CONCENTRATED POWER.

>> WELL, YOU TALK ABOUT THE GILDED AGE.

YOU TALK ABOUT THE CONCENTRATED POWER, THE ROBBER BARONS OF THE PEOPLE WHO CREATED THE RAILROADS AND THE TRUSTS AND BANKING TRUSTS AND ALL THAT.

WE GET TEDDY ROOSEVELT WHO PUTS IN EVERYTHING FROM GUARDRAILS, AGENCIES THAT REGULATE AS WELL AS SAFETY CONCERNS AS WELL AS BREAKING UP SOME OF THESE BIG COMPANIES, ANTITRUSTS.

AND HE WAS A REPUBLICAN AND LATER BECOMES A BULL MOOSE INDEPENDENT.

DO YOU THINK THIS IS A BIPARTISAN FEELING AND WE MIGHT SEE A HUNGER FOR SORT OF A BULL MOOSE LIKE TEDDY ROOSEVELT TO COME ALONG?

>> I THINK IF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY --AND I'M NOT GOING TO BE AN ADVISOR ON THEIR NEXT POLITICAL CAMPAIGNS.

BUT I THINK IF THEY WERE SMART THEY WOULD TAKE THE MESSAGE THAT TRUMP'S APPROACH, WHICH WAS CONTEMPT FOR THE COMMUNITIES THAT WERE RESISTING DATA CENTERS.

THAT CAME UP WHILE I WAS IN IOWA.

HE WAS SAYING, OH, THEY WANT TO REMIND POOR AND BACKWARD.

WELL, I WAS SITTING AT A TABLE WITH TRUMP VOTERS WHO HAD BECOME DISENCHANTED, AS THEY PUT IT, BECAUSE HE DIDN'T SEEM TO UNDERSTAND WHY THEY HAD A PROBLEM WITH THIS.

IN FACT, HE SEEMED DISDAINFUL OF THEM.

IF I WERE A REPUBLICAN I WOULD MOVE AWAY FROM THAT POSITION AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE BECAUSE IT'S NOT GOING TO BE POPULAR.

AND IT'S NOT THE WAVE OF THE FUTURE.

AND THE SORT OF TECH WASHINGTON SYNERGY THAT HAPPENED IN THE FIRST TWO YEARS OF THE TRUMP SECOND TERM WITH SILICON VALLEY HAVING SO MUCH INFLUENCE OVER THE WHITE HOUSE HAS BEEN A DISASTER FOR THE REPUBLICANS.

AND I THINK THE SMART ONES WITH THEIR EAR TO THEIR CONSTITUENTS WILL KNOW THEY BE TO TRY TO DISENTANGLE THEMSELVES FROM THAT.

>> OKAY, SO THERE'S THIS BACKLASH AGAINST BUILDING DATA CENTERS AND MAYBE AGAINST TECH BUILDING IN GENERAL.

BUT THE REASON THE AMERICAN ECONOMY HAS BEEN STRONG AND JOB GROWTH HAS BEEN STRONG FOR THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS IS THIS BOOM IN AN A. I. ECONOMY OF DATA CENTERS BUT ALSO CONSTRUCTION.

DO YOU WORRY THAT THIS BACKLASH COULD HARM PERHAPS EVEN CRASH THE U. S. ECONOMY?

>> IN A SENSE YES.

IT COULD CERTAINLY CRASH THE STOCK MARKET, WHICH HAS BEEN PRETTY MUCH ENTIRELY HELD UP BY A. I. FOR THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

BUT FOR AMERICANS WHO DON'T OWN STOCK OR DON'T HAVE MUCH, WHO ARE LIVING, YOU KNOW, ON WAGES, LIVING EVEN PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK, I'M NOT SURE THE BOOM --THE A. I. BOOM FROM THE BUILDOUT AND FROM THE STOCK MARKET HAS REALLY HELPED THEM.

IT HASN'T HAD MUCH REACH FOR THEM.

WE ALL KNOW NOW, YOU KNOW, IF WE DIDN'T BEFORE THAT GROCERY PRICES, GAS PRICES, DIESEL PRICES ALL HAVE GONE UP.

ELECTRICITY PRICES HAVE GONE UP.

THAT HASN'T BEEN TALKED ABOUT AS MUCH, BUT THAT'S SOMETHING I HEARD QUITE A BIT IN CLINT.

AND SO IN A SENSE IT'S HAPPENING IN SOME OTHER PLACE TO SOME OTHER PEOPLE FAR AWAY.

DIDN'T FEEL AS IF CLINTON WAS BENEFITTING FROM A STOCK MARKET BOOM OR A JOB BOOM, EVEN THOUGH UNEMPLOYMENT IS QUITE LOW IN IOWA.

INSTEAD IT FELT LIKE STAGNATION AND RISING PRICES, RISING INTEREST RATES THAT WERE MAKING PEOPLE LIVES EVEN MORE AND MORE OF A SQUEEZE.

SO NOT, YOU KNOW, DEPRESSION LEVEL OR RECESSION LEVEL.

BUT JUST WHEN YOU HEAR THAT IT'S --EVERYTHING IS GOING GREAT, WHICH IS WHAT THEY WERE HEARING FROM THE PRESIDENT AND YOU'RE NOT SEEING IT, AGAIN THAT MAKES YOU DISTRUST PEOPLE IN POWER.

>> TO WHAT EXTENT DO YOU THINK RISING ECONOMIC INEQUALITY AND WEALTH INEQUALITY IS AT THE CORE OF THIS?

>> I THINK IT'S A HUGE PART OF IT.

I FELT THAT FOR YEARS AND YEARS.

I'VE WRITTEN QUITE A LOT ABOUT IT.

I THINK INEQUALITY IS AN INTERESTING CONCEPT BECAUSE IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN SOME PEOPLE ARE DOING TERRIBLY AND OTHERS ARE DOING SPECTACULARLY WELL.

IT JUST MEANS THE GAP IS GROWING.

AND THAT'S BEEN TRUE OVER THE LAST TWO YEARS.

THE WEALTH OF THE WEALTHIEST HAS BEEN EXPLODING.

THE WEALTH OF THE BOTTOM HALF OR THIRD HAS BEEN PRETTY FLAT.

AND IT'S NOT AS THOUGH THE BOTTOM HAS FALLEN OUT AND WE'VE REENTERED A NEW DEPRESSION FOR HALF THE COUNTRY.

IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT.

IT'S THAT THEY SEE PRICES RISING.

THE THINGS THEY USED TO EXPECT TO BE ABLE TO AFFORD, THEY CAN'T.

AND THEN THEY SEE SORT OF OTHER PEOPLES SPECTACULAR WEALTH BEING SHOVED IN THEIR FACES INCLUDING THE SPENDING ON THE CAMPAIGNS.

THE INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT TECH INCLUDING MUSK WERE POURING INTO REPUBLICAN CAMPAIGNS.

I THINK IT'S JUST --CREATES A SENSE OF UNFAIRNESS AND OF BEING LEFT OUT, BEING LEFT BEHIND, AND OF THE DEMOCRACY THAT'S SUPPOSED TO BE A DEMOCRACY THAT ALLOWS EVERYONE TO HAVE A PLACE AT THE TABLE IS NOT REALLY WORKING.

AND SO THEY VOTED FOR SOMETHING ELSE.

AND I THINK THAT'S BEEN COMING FOR A LONG TIME.

THE WAY I SEE IT, WALTER, WE HAD TEN YEARS OF CULTURE WARS THAT GREATLY BENEFITTED DONALD TRUMP.

AND I THINK THAT IS ENDING.

AND WE ARE NOW LOOKING AT A PERIOD OF IF NOT CLASS WAR, AT LEAST OF ECONOMIC POPULISM THAT'S GOING TO PUT PRESSURE ON THE UPPER CLASS AND THE 1%, THE 0.

1%.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE BEEN WRITING ABOUT THIS FOR MORE THAN TWO DECADES.

I THINK "THE UNWINDING" CAME OUT IN 2013.

AND YOU FOLLOWED IT UP WITH "THE LAST BEST HOPE" FIVE YEARS AGO.

ALL OF THAT IS PART OF THIS ECONOMIC POPULISM SWELLING UP, BUT THERE WAS SOMETHING EVEN DEEPER IN THOSE BOOKS, WHICH IS YOUR NOTION OF A SHARED COMMON FAITH THAT'S NECESSARY TO DEMOCRACY.

DO YOU THINK THAT THAT'S IN PLAY RIGHT NOW?

>> I DO.

I REALLY DO.

AND I THINK ONE THING TRUMP WAS ABLE TO EXPLOIT WAS THIS WEAKENING FAITH IN DEMOCRACY THAT PEOPLE WHO HAVE FELT LEFT OUT HAVE HAD.

IT TURNED OUT HE WAS A CON-MAN.

HE WASN'T GOING TO DO IT FOR THEM.

HE WASN'T GOING TO GIVE THEM WHAT HE SAID HE WOULD.

AND I THINK A LOT OF THEM FIGURED THAT OUT LAST WEEK.

BUT IT WAS JUST A ROLE WAITING TO BE PLAYED.

WHEN I WROTE "THE UNWINDING," IT WAS THREE YEARS BEFORE TRUMP WAS ELECTED THE FIRST TIME.

I DIDN'T SEE HIM COMING.

I WOULDN'T CLAIM AT ALL THAT I SAW HIM COMING.

I DID SEE A LANDSCAPE WHERE SOMEONE LIKE THAT, THE POPULUS DEMAGOGUE, LET'S SAY, WOULD BE ABLE TO GRAB THE GOLDEN RING BECAUSE THE ELITES OF BOTH PARTIES JUST DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN PARTS OF THE COUNTRY THAT THEY MAYBE DIDN'T HEAR FROM VERY OFTEN AND THAT THE MEDIA DIDN'T HEAR FROM OR GO TO OFTEN ENOUGH.

SO, YEAH, AT THE BOTTOM IT'S ABOUT A SOCIAL CONTRACT THAT SAYS WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE IN IT TOGETHER.

WE'RE SUPPOSED TO HAVE EQUAL VOICES AS AMERICANS.

WE'RE SUPPOSED TO HAVE A PLACE AT THE TABLE.

AND IF I'M WORKING HARD AND MY KIDS ARE GOING TO SCHOOL AND THEY'RE DOING WHAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO AND WE'RE STILL FALLING BEHIND AND OTHERS ARE LIVING THIS LIFE THAT I CAN'T EVEN RECOGNIZE OR UNDERSTAND, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN OUR DEMOCRACY IS DOING?

AND IN A WAY IT'S KIND OF A REMARKABLE THING THAT THERE'S STILL ENOUGH FAITH IN DEMOCRACY THAT PEOPLE CHOSE THE ONE WAY THEY STILL HAVE TO EXERCISE POWER, WHICH WAS THE BALLOT.

>> GEORGE PACKER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US AGAIN.

>> MY PLEASURE, WALTER.

> >> AND FINALLY, WE WILL REMEMBER THEM.

EUROPE MARKS ARMISTICE DAY IN RECOGNITION OF ALL THOSE WHO LOST THEIR LIVES IN ARMED CONFLICT.

TODAY AT THE 11th HOUR ON THE 11th DAY OF THE 11th MONTH THERE WERE TWO MINUTES OF SILENCE REMEMBERING THE END OF WORLD WAR I IN 1918.

THESE WERE THE SCENES AS THE KING, POLITICAL, AND MILITARY LEADERS PAID THEIR RESPECTS HERE IN LONDON ON WHAT'S KNOWN AS REMEMBRANCE SUNDAY.

AND IN THE UNITED STATES TODAY AMERICA DID THE SAME, MARKING VETERAN'S DAY.

PRESIDENT TRUMP PLACED A WREATH AT ARLINGTON NATIONAL CEMETERY.

BUT PERHAPS MATCHING THE MOOD, SOME HAVE USED THIS OCCASION TO PROTEST AGAINST TRUMP.

THIS STATUE APPEARED ON THE MALL IN WASHINGTON THIS WEEK ENTITLED "THE FOOT SOLDIER. "

THE LIFE-SIZED SCULPTURE SATIRIZES THE PRESIDENT'S MEDICAL NOTE ABOUT BONE SPURS TO AVOID THE VIETNAM DRAFT.

MEANTIME, "THE WASHINGTON POST" ART CRITIC SAYS THERE ARE WAY TOO MANY MEMORIALS TO AMERICA'S WAY TOO MANY WARS THROUGHOUT HISTORY, POINTING OUT THAT THE MALL WAS MEANT TO SYMBOLIZE PEACE AND RECONCILIATION AFTER THE CIVIL WAR.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.

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